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Old 05-27-2014, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
This bold in particular. Obesity increases with age.

I'm not impressed by economic analyses of health issues by economists or others who have no health care background. There is a very popular pregnancy book out now, written by an economist who thinks she has the Holy Grail, that says it's OK to drink a drink a day the last 6 months of pregnancy! She has done some sort of "analysis" and has come to that conclusion despite the fact that 40 years of research about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome says otherwise. I don't mean to hijack, just giving an example.
There's a lot of support among the medical field that there isn't any demonstrable harm from "one drink per day." For example, ACOG has published just that. That's completely different than them saying "run out and have a drink, it's a-okay!" They do not say that. There's no upside to the "have a drink a day because there's no demonstrable harm" approach. So while the economist is generally completely right that there is a good amount of data that there isn't demonstrable harm, why on earth would you take medical advise from an economist and not the medical field?

As a parallel, take allergy meds. Loratadine is generally considered fairly safe to use during pregnancy. That doesn't mean you go huffing down loratadine for no good reason. If you have a good reason for taking it, like you're really miserable which can have an affect on health, you're probably off better taking it than not taking it. Upside of a drink a day? None.

In general, medicine is one of those stupidly complex fields that economists don't know anything about. If you don't know anything about something you're running statistical analysis on, how do you go about picking out variables.
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:52 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,634,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
There's a lot of support among the medical field that there isn't any demonstrable harm from "one drink per day." For example, ACOG has published just that. That's completely different than them saying "run out and have a drink, it's a-okay!" They do not say that. There's no upside to the "have a drink a day because there's no demonstrable harm" approach. So while the economist is generally completely right that there is a good amount of data that there isn't demonstrable harm, why on earth would you take medical advise from an economist and not the medical field?

As a parallel, take allergy meds. Loratadine is generally considered fairly safe to use during pregnancy. That doesn't mean you go huffing down loratadine for no good reason. If you have a good reason for taking it, like you're really miserable which can have an affect on health, you're probably off better taking it than not taking it. Upside of a drink a day? None.

In general, medicine is one of those stupidly complex fields that economists don't know anything about. If you don't know anything about something you're running statistical analysis on, how do you go about picking out variables.
Please post a cite to that!

Just did a Google search to see if I missed anything.

This ACOG Toolkit | FASD | NCBDDD | CDC is a joint report from ACOG and CDC, from this April. It says: "There is no known safe amount of alcohol use during pregnancy or while trying to get pregnant. There is also no safe time during pregnancy to drink. All types of alcohol are equally harmful, including all wines and beer. When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her baby."

This is from ACOG itself, this February.
http://www.acog.org/About_ACOG/ACOG_...trum_Disorders
**Maternal alcohol use is a preventable cause of birth defects. Children exposed to alcohol in utero are at risk for growth deficiencies, facial deformities, central nervous impairment, behavioral disorders, and impaired intellectual development. ACOG District II is committed to educating the public of the risks and consequences of drinking alcohol during pregnancy, while offering obstetric providers the proper training and education necessary to improve practice and prevent FASD. **

The only one telling pregnant women to drink is Emily Oster, and she is not qualified to do so. She is not a member of ACOG; she is not a health care provider. She has managed to convince a lot of yuppies that she's right.
http://www.amazon.com/Expecting-Bett.../dp/B00AEBEQUK

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-27-2014 at 03:21 PM..
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:03 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Please post a cite to that!

Just did a Google search to see if I missed anything.

This ACOG Toolkit | FASD | NCBDDD | CDC is a joint report from ACOG and CDC, from this April. It says: "There is no known safe amount of alcohol use during pregnancy or while trying to get pregnant. There is also no safe time during pregnancy to drink. All types of alcohol are equally harmful, including all wines and beer. When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her baby."
Not familiar with the subject, but that link isn't quite contradicting what Malloric says. A drink a day may not be proven to be safe, but it could also not have proven to cause demonstrable harm. It's hard to prove a positive. The effect is perhaps small enough it's lost among other factors, making a clear conclusion difficult. Additionally, the CDC probably wishes to err on the side of caution rather than say "it's ok to have a drink a day while pregnant". It looks like it's rather hard to prove that crack is bad for a baby, as well:

Prenatal cocaine exposure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wouldn't conclude that it's safe.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,171 posts, read 29,686,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I'd like to know how many more steps, all things considered, someone who commutes via mass transit gets than someone who uses their car.

Generally speaking, after all, people won't walk to a bus stop or train station if it's more than a 10-15 minute walk from their house. Then they need to walk to their place of work when they get to Downtown (or wherever), so at maximum, they might be adding 30 minutes of moderate walking activity daily, as opposed to the five minutes or so of walking someone who goes from garage to surface lot in an office park might have.
When I commuted via transit, walking to the bus, the office from the bus stop and lunch was about 3 miles on a typical day, but some days were of course a lot more. But it was a mile from the commuter bus station to my office, and I walked that of course 2x a day.

That didn't include the incidental walking during the day (around the office or at home)

Quote:
Obviously if you live in a fully walkable neighborhood, the amount of physical activity would potentially be much higher, as you might walk for hours in evening and on the weekends as part of shopping/socialization. But I don't see any way simply moving more people towards mass transit would help reduce obesity.
The goal isn't to "reduce obesity" but to increase activity. Some people will always struggle with "getting to a societal acceptable weight" but people at any size, who are more active, on a day to day basis, are healthier than their inactive peers. And we have engineered the activity out of our days and environment. This manifests itself differently in every person, for some it is extra weight, others a shorter lifespan or heart issues and for others it means more stress.

Instead of focusing on "making the fat people skinny." The goal should be, getting everyone, no matter what their size/weight/BMI to adopt healthy habits: staying active and eating well.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:16 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Not familiar with the subject, but that link isn't quite contradicting what Malloric says. A drink a day may not be proven to be safe, but it could also not have proven to cause demonstrable harm. It's hard to prove a positive. The effect is perhaps small enough it's lost among other factors, making a clear conclusion difficult. Additionally, the CDC probably wishes to err on the side of caution rather than say "it's ok to have a drink a day while pregnant". It looks like it's rather hard to prove that crack is bad for a baby, as well:

Prenatal cocaine exposure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wouldn't conclude that it's safe.
The Hell it isn't contradictory! Good Grief! NO ONE with any sense tells pregnant women to drink up to a drink a day. Your logic is the same as Emily Oster's, but babies have been born with FAS to moms who have drunk as little as one drink a day! The recommendation is NO alcohol during pregnancy! Period! There is no safe level of drinking in pregnancy. If you don't want to believe the US health authorities, look at what they have to say in oh, so progressive Europe! Only three countries give any leeway at all, and that's after saying it's best NOT to drink! Why take a chance? Only an alcoholic could justify drinking during pregnancy. And why introduce cocaine into this? All these "light drinkers" will justify it by saying, "I'm not doing cocaine". Well, big whoop!

International Guidelines on Drinking and Pregnancy

Sorry to go off topic, but I feel like I need to correct this severe misinformation in case anyone gets any crazy ideas!
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:20 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The Hell it isn't contradictory! Good Grief! NO ONE with any sense tells pregnant women to drink up to a drink a day. Your logic is the same as Emily Oster's, but babies have been born with FAS to moms who have drunk as little as one drink a day!
How so? You haven't expalined why that's contradictory, the rest of your post is unrelated. I explained why I brought cocaine into it. Saying demonstrable harm is not proven is not the same as proving it's safe. Your null and burden of proof is in the opposite direction.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:27 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,634,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
You haven't expalined why that's contradictory, the rest of your post is unrelated. I explained why I brought cocaine into it. Saying demonstrable harm is not proven is not the same as saying it's safe.
What do you mean, unrelated? Regarding contradictory, Malloric says the ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) just released a position statement that it's OK for pregnant women to have a drink a day in the last six months of pregnancy. That is totally untrue. ACOG did not issue any such position statement. Their position is that there is NO SAFE LEVEL OF ALCOHOL during pregnancy. We weren't talking about cocaine until you brought it up.

The position of ACOG, CDC, NIAAA and all other health boards is that there is NO SAFE LEVEL OF ALCOHOL DURING PREGNANCY! Anyone who drinks during pregnancy does so at their own risk, not with the blessings of any health agency. Yes, there are a few doctors around who still think it's OK, but they are wrong!
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:30 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,998,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
What do you mean, unrelated? Regarding contradictory, Malloric says the ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) just released a position statement that it's OK for pregnant women to have a drink a day in the last six months of pregnancy.
You didn't explain in your post why they weren't contradictory.

Malloric said no such thing. Read his post carefully. He said the ACOG said there is no demonstrable harm from one drink a day. That does NOT mean it is proven to be safe nor that said it's ok. Note the bolded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
There's a lot of support among the medical field that there isn't any demonstrable harm from "one drink per day." For example, ACOG has published just that. That's completely different than them saying "run out and have a drink, it's a-okay!" They do not say that. There's no upside to the "have a drink a day because there's no demonstrable harm" approach. So while the economist is generally completely right that there is a good amount of data that there isn't demonstrable harm, why on earth would you take medical advise from an economist and not the medical field?
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,072 posts, read 16,094,154 times
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It's apparently from a 1987 pamphlet put out by ACOG. I can't cite it directly, best I can do is this:

Fetal Alcohol Syndrome

And Nei is right, it isn't contradictory in the least. I mean, for one it's pretty well known that FAS is pretty variable fetus to fetus. For whatever reason that is, it is. No safe level and one drink per day causing no demonstrable harm really aren't contradictory.

Take psuedoephedrine, it's class c, which means there's no demonstrated risk in pregnant women. None the less, it's not recommended for pregnant women and falls into the risk/benefit determination on a case-by-case basis.

Or take caffeine, ACOG now considers basically a cup of coffee a day to be fine. Apparently there's enough data that all points to that level of caffeine being safe they're comfortable with that but not setting a safe level of alcohol.

Last edited by Malloric; 05-27-2014 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:40 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,634,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
You didn't explain in your post why they weren't contradictory.

Malloric said no such thing. Read his post carefully. He said the ACOG said there is no demonstrable harm from one drink a day. That does NOT mean it is proven to be safe nor that said it's ok. Note the bolded.
Dammit, ACOG said no such thing in the recent past. Malloric's link is from 27 years ago! Since then, we've learned a few things, and this is one of MY areas of expertise, not yours, and presumably not Malloric's. Actually 30 years ago when I was pregnant for the first time, the advice was to not drink. But sure, go ahead and encourage your significants to drink during pregnancy. There have been cases of FAS that occurred with just one drink a day, and probably lots more cases of FAE. You can look it up yourselves. I'm really irritated with this conversation, with this nitpicky crap. Just ONE month ago, ACOG reaffirmed that THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL OF ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION DURING PREGNANCY! To repeat, THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL OF ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION DURING PREGNANCY! Once more, THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL OF ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION DURING PREGNANCY! The health authorities of the US and many other countries agree!
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