U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-09-2014, 08:18 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,990 posts, read 102,554,590 times
Reputation: 33058

Advertisements

In Chicago, Neighborhoods That Are More Black Don't Gentrify : Code Switch : NPR

An interesting take. Not sure I totally agree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-09-2014, 08:33 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,986 posts, read 41,937,844 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I think that's true for Chicago, it's not necessarily true for other US cities. The race effect seems less strong in NYC, not sure about Boston. Chicago has very large difference in violent crime in its mostly black neighborhoods compared to the rest of the city, and even the less crime-ridden black neighborhood may get assumed to be dangerous by whites. Certainly white working class neighborhoods in Philadelphia have seen more gentrification than black ones, though you might have to control for income and other factors (as the study did) to make sure the effect is just race. DC has seen a number of black neighborhoods gentrify and become much whiter.

To nitpick on one statement here:

"In a lot of the literature on segregation and residential preferences, studies have found that people have preferred neighborhoods with more whites and least preferred neighborhoods with all blacks — and Asians and Latinos in the middle," Hwang said.

What people? I think he's really discussing the preferences of white people. Some blacks prefer mostly black neighborhoods even if few whites do:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...1TM_story.html

And yes, I think Prince Georges County is an example of white flight. It's middle class, actually wealthier than most suburban Denver counties yet most of the white population is gone (85% white in 1970, 15% now). How else would you get that situation?

Last edited by nei; 08-09-2014 at 08:54 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2014, 08:51 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,990 posts, read 102,554,590 times
Reputation: 33058
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I think that's true for Chicago, it's not necessarily true for other US cities. The race effect seems less strong in NYC, not sure about Boston. Chicago has very large difference in violent crime in its mostly black neighborhoods compared to the rest of the city, and even the less crime-ridden black neighborhood may get assumed to be dangerous by whites. Certainly white working class neighborhoods in Philadelphia have seen more gentrification than black ones, though you might have to control for income and other factors (as the study did) to make sure the effect is just race. DC has seen a number of black neighborhoods gentrify and become much whiter.

To nitpick on one statement here:

"In a lot of the literature on segregation and residential preferences, studies have found that people have preferred neighborhoods with more whites and least preferred neighborhoods with all blacks and Asians and Latinos in the middle," Hwang said.

What people? I think he's really discussing the preferences of white people. Some blacks prefer mostly black neighborhoods even if few whites do:

Prince George

And yes, I think Prince Georges County is an example of white flight. It's middle class, actually wealthier than most suburban Denver counties yet most of the white population is gone. How else would you get that situation?
Read the comments. A lot of people disagree with the premise. I just posted it b/c I thought it was interesting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2014, 09:00 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,986 posts, read 41,937,844 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Read the comments. A lot of people disagree with the premise. I just posted it b/c I thought it was interesting.
I thought it was interesting as well, I was adding my take on it. The comments I saw didn't really agree that black neighborhoods get gentrification in Chicago.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,416 posts, read 11,917,166 times
Reputation: 10536
I would say it's true that gentrification tends to preferentially happen in working-class white neighborhoods when available, and barring that in Latino/Asian neighborhoods. Majority-black neighborhoods can and will gentrify when they have really attractive amenities like superior housing stock and good transit access - particularly in cities with a high black population. But the gentrification tends to happen more slowly here unless developers are doing a lot of the heavy lifting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 07:27 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,819,994 times
Reputation: 9769
Certainly not true in Philadelphia; plenty of gentrification in mostly-black areas to the north and west of Center City.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 08:06 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,953,913 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Certainly not true in Philadelphia; plenty of gentrification in mostly-black areas to the north and west of Center City.
No, there definitely isn't plenty.

There's been some demographic change just west of Penn in what was probably a majority black neighborhood but has always been demographically mixed and has only gotten more mixed. It's also been a mostly middle-class to blue collar neighborhood for a long time.

Same thing north of CC.

Northern Liberties was never majority black.

Fairmount has been majority white since forever and even just east of there it's been a mix of blacks, whites and Puerto Ricans for a long time. It only started changing after several decades of exodus by all ethnic groups.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 08:16 PM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,953,913 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
To nitpick on one statement here:

"In a lot of the literature on segregation and residential preferences, studies have found that people have preferred neighborhoods with more whites and least preferred neighborhoods with all blacks and Asians and Latinos in the middle," Hwang said.

What people? I think he's really discussing the preferences of white people. Some blacks prefer mostly black neighborhoods even if few whites do:
If you look around at different cities you'll see that most of the hyper-segregated neighborhoods (more than 90% one race) are AA.

There are very few neighborhoods in any big city where you'll find more than 90% white people.

It seems to me that most people appreciate diversity to some degree - meaning that most people who have a choice choose not to live in an ethnic ghetto and, more than anything, people try to avoid neighborhoods with extreme poverty and the problems that come with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2014, 11:15 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,986 posts, read 41,937,844 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
If you look around at different cities you'll see that most of the hyper-segregated neighborhoods (more than 90% one race) are AA.

There are very few neighborhoods in any big city where you'll find more than 90% white people.

It seems to me that most people appreciate diversity to some degree - meaning that most people who have a choice choose not to live in an ethnic ghetto and, more than anything, people try to avoid neighborhoods with extreme poverty and the problems that come with it.
Agreed, though I'm not sure how that connects to what I was saying. Though plenty of white people aren't bothered by living in a neighborhood 90%+ white and it seems some black people are fine with a middle class and overwhelmingly black neighborhood.

As to the bolded, there's a number in NYC. Most are Hasidic Jewish (found a 97% white tract in Borough Park) but those areas are in an ethnic ghetto in the classic sense. Except one the residents want to live apart.

The most residentially segregated black neighborhoods (in the sense of overwhelming black) in NYC are middle income or well off (household income $75k +) in southeastern Queens. Most extreme example is a census tract that's 97% black and a median income of about $90k. Various historical factors are responsible, but like Prince Georges County, the residents must not be that bothered by the lack of diversity. At least in recent decades, they have the means to live elsewhere.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2014, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,760,401 times
Reputation: 1616
I think the segregated black neighbourhoods in Queens are become more diverse though, right? Mainly from hispanics it seems, but some census tracts have increasing white populations (though from a very low base, so maybe a rounding error?). I think Chicago has neighbourhoods like that too, and of course LA has black neighbourhoods becoming hispanic.

BTW in Toronto, I think the most black census tract is just under 50%. The Toronto census tracts above 30% black are typically poor, and will have other ethnic groups mixed in, especially South Asians, often also Vietnamese and Latin Americans, and also some Chinese, Filipino, whites, Arabs... Neighbourhoods with 15-30% blacks (which is still above average for Toronto) can be middle class, as with several Brampton, Pickering and Ajax neighbourhoods. They'll often have more South Asians and fewer Chinese and whites than average though.

Neighbourhoods with over 90% whites are rare, there were about 50 out of 1000 in 2006, which has probably gone down. Mostly it's wealthy neighbourhoods, the Kingsway area in Etobicoke, parts of North Toronto, The Beaches, parts of South Oakville. There's only a couple middle class neighbourhoods, Alderwood and a couple CTs adjacent to it in Mississauga, older neighbourhoods of Milton and a few in Oakville.

Areas that are more white are mostly older more established neighbourhoods. Toronto had very few minorities before 1970, so the initial population was mostly white. For the demographics to change, whites need to move out, which takes time, and to be replaced by largely minorities. Scarborough has somewhat been losing it's appeal as it's been aging. Since whites are wealthier on average, if they're moving, they can often afford new suburban homes, and it seems Scarborough hasn't been able to compete that well. So minorities and immigrants have been moving into the lower cost housing left behind, especially older suburban apartments which have even less appeal to the upper-middle class (less than modest 50s/60s bungalows). Other neighbourhoods like North Toronto and East-Central Etobicoke have kept their appeal and remained mostly white.

Also if an ethnic group is able to form an enclave, it'll have more appeal to them. It's more difficult to do that in an established neighbourhood that's already majority white. In the past immigrants have been moving into older core neighbourhoods left behind by whites, but now that whites are staying in older neighbourhood or even showing preference for moving into them, immigrants are mostly forming enclaves in either suburban apartment neighbourhoods (poorer immigrants) or new build suburbs (middle class immigrants).

So regarding US neighbourhoods becoming less white, it could be because:

-The white population in many metro areas is decreasing, and their share of the total in (afaik) all metro areas is decreasing (you'd expect about -5 to -10% whites per decade just from this factor in an average neighbourhood with an unchanging total population)
-Sometimes, whites are just not that interested in moving into certain neighbourhoods like aging suburbs. If they live there, they might have an attachment to their home and community and stay, which is why they often have an older population, but otherwise if they never lived there, they don't really move in. Since whites are generally wealthier, this can also mean housing gets more affordable (at least relative to the rest of the metro), so lower income minorities move in. It can be hard to say how much of this is due to the neighbourhood aging and how much is due to changing ethnic composition though.
-new housing built in communities that are becoming less white, might become more appealing to certain ethnic group since it's easier for them to form enclaves. Also as they get swallowed up by the city, and as a result more centrally located in relation to jobs (and now with the added effect of gentrification), their appeal can increase for lower income households, so new housing that might have previously been geared towards upper middle class might then be geared towards lower middle class. More lower income minorities can then move in

I think the above factors can probably account for a 10-20% decrease in the white population per decade, maybe even more.

Finally, you might get true white flight where existing white residents start moving out at a greater rate than in an average neighbourhood. That looks like it might be happening in PG county. Also in a few outer neighbourhoods of Detroit and some of its inner suburbs (ex Southfield and Harper Woods). Probably elsewhere too. Sometimes the blacks or other minorities moving in might be mostly middle class, and concerns of the neighbourhood going rapidly downhill unjustified in theory (ie based in racism) but if it increasingly only has appeal to the middle class of one minority, which only make up a small chunk of the middle class housing market, I think that can cause property values to drop and become a self-fulfilling prophecy as it now becomes affordable to the lower income members of that minority group.

I'm not sure if that's happening in Prince George's. Reading the articles, it anecdotally seems like some think it has. A couple commenters mentioned Bowie where the poor population has indeed gone up quite a bit. Poverty seems to have gone down in Seat Pleasant though. It's not clear if it has gone up overall, or if it has just shifted around.

http://datatools.metrotrends.org/cha...89708709716797

Last edited by memph; 08-12-2014 at 02:17 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top