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Old 07-16-2014, 02:51 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,858,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
You know, City-Data is an open forum. You're more than free to crunch the numbers yourself. I would be interested to see them. I even provided links in my initial post that state how much is being spent on roads, highways, and rail in America per year.

But before you do that, consider this:

When I moved to Chicago 3 years ago, it cost me $86 a month for unlimited rides on the CTA. As of 2014, it costs me $100 a month for unlimited rides on the CTA.

In 20 years, the federal tax on gas has been raised $0.00
However the only thing the CTA pass pays for is the CTA itself(that plus taxes). It does not pay for the road the bus drives on. The city of Chicago pays for the streets, the state and feds for expressways.

 
Old 07-16-2014, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Chicago
1,312 posts, read 1,582,316 times
Reputation: 1487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Cool story. Just needs to go up to about $180/mo to cover the operating cost.
That could happen. I'd be down for it. It's still cheaper than driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
...Gas tax should be increased, but that's really ancillary to the fact that transit is much more subsidized than driving.
So, is your response essentially, "Yeah, but it's not as bad as _____."?

The point is: While public and private transportation is subsidized at different levels, public transportation is the one that raises usage fees(taxes/fares) somewhat proportionally to inflation. (Federal) Gas taxes haven't been raised in 20 years.
 
Old 07-16-2014, 03:23 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,858,676 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
That could happen. I'd be down for it. It's still cheaper than driving.



So, is your response essentially, "Yeah, but it's not as bad as _____."?

The point is: While public and private transportation is subsidized at different levels, public transportation is the one that raises usage fees(taxes/fares) somewhat proportionally to inflation. (Federal) Gas taxes haven't been raised in 20 years.
However public transportation winds up getting more funding in the end. The CTA has to pay the driver, buy the bus as well as maintain it. The car is paid for by it's owner. The roads are needed regardless.
 
Old 07-16-2014, 03:27 PM
 
410 posts, read 388,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
Not quite.

You're talking about one (1) mile of road that 50,000 cars drive on, then giving the number for 25 miles/25 MPG of tax money.


Your equation should be:

2,000 gallons * $0.036 {1/25th of the gas tax} = $72.24 tax to drivers for that one mile stretch each day.
$72.24 * 365 * 20 year design life = $527,352 taxed over 20 years for that one mile stretch of road.

Still $1,072,648 short of the initial cost of the highway.
I'm sorry you can't do this. I really am because I wouldn't have to sit here and watch you fumble around and F#@% it up.
 
Old 07-16-2014, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impala096 View Post
I'm sorry you can't do this. I really am because I wouldn't have to sit here and watch you fumble around and F#@% it up.
Do you like apples?
 
Old 07-16-2014, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,062 posts, read 16,078,369 times
Reputation: 12636
Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
That could happen. I'd be down for it. It's still cheaper than driving.
Not really.

Cost of Transit & Cars

Old outdated date, and it's averages. In urban places, driving tends to be more expensive (parking), less efficient (congestion). Transit tends to be at least somewhat useful. That's not where I live, however. Here transit sucks, is extraordinarily expensive. Driving is way more useful. I've lived about three years of my life post college without a car by choice simply because it really wasn't worth it to own one, just used Enterprise/ZipCars when I wanted to use a car, which wasn't that often, or took taxis.

Quote:
So, is your response essentially, "Yeah, but it's not as bad as _____."?

The point is: While public and private transportation is subsidized at different levels, public transportation is the one that raises usage fees(taxes/fares) somewhat proportionally to inflation. (Federal) Gas taxes haven't been raised in 20 years.
CA gas tax went up, registration is higher. Yup that's my point. Start with the most egregious, transit. If you're just anti-car (which is what most people are) and have no problem with subsidies then just be honest about it and be anti-car. Transit is way more subsidies than cars are.
 
Old 07-16-2014, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Chicago
1,312 posts, read 1,582,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
However the only thing the CTA pass pays for is the CTA itself(that plus taxes). It does not pay for the road the bus drives on. The city of Chicago pays for the streets, the state and feds for expressways.
I'm not a math whiz. I've never claimed to be. I will do what I can, but more complicated things would take me some timeÖ unless someone else (not necessarily you, chirack) wants to figure them out?


According to the CTA :

"On an average weekday, 1.7 million rides are taken on CTA."

"CTA has 1,865 buses that operate over 127 routes and 1,354 route miles. Buses make about 19,000 trips a day and serve 11,104 bus stops."

Roughly 1,000,000 of those rides are by bus. If we assume that those million rides live up to the full fare potential of $2.50 per person, then that is $25,000,000 a day that the CTA collects in money.

The diesel tax rate is here.

Let's say buses get 5 MPG


So, we have 19,000 trips * 1,354 road miles = 25,726,000 total bus miles driven a day.
25,726,000 total bus miles / 1,865 buses = 13,794 gallons of diesel a day.

At $0.50 per gallon (minus state tax) that works out to $6,897.05 per day paid in the federal diesel tax.



If we have 1,865 personal vehicles * 100 road miles (in keeping with my OP) = 186,500 miles a day.
186,500 personal vehicle miles / 25 MPG = 7,460 gallons of gas a day.

At 7,460 gallons * $0.903 in the highest federal and state gas taxes = $6,736.38 per day paid in taxes.



BUS 6,736.38
-CAR 6,897.05
_____________
-$160.67




Yes, the bus skips out on $160.67 in gas tax a day, but it also carries 998,135 MORE PEOPLE than an equal number of private vehicles.
 
Old 07-16-2014, 05:23 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,827,437 times
Reputation: 9769
Trying to get the numbers this way is not going to get you anything even close. You need to get your state DOT budget, find sources of revenue and spending, categorize them as to roads or not, and add them up that way. It gets tricky because of transfers to mass transit, transfers to municipal budgets (which may or may not be for road funding), income from other sources (e.g. do you count a gross receipts tax on refined petroleum products as equivalent to "gas tax"? Where do toll revenues fit in), etc.

Mass transit, on the other hand, is easy. Amount of capital expense funded from the farebox....z-e-r-o.
 
Old 07-16-2014, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,062 posts, read 16,078,369 times
Reputation: 12636
Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
"On an average weekday, 1.7 million rides are taken on CTA."

"CTA has 1,865 buses that operate over 127 routes and 1,354 route miles. Buses make about 19,000 trips a day and serve 11,104 bus stops."

Roughly 1,000,000 of those rides are by bus. If we assume that those million rides live up to the full fare potential of $2.50 per person, then that is $25,000,000 a day that the CTA collects in money.
And with CTA farebox recovery of 55%, that means another $20.5 million per day in taxpayer subsidy, if they collect $25,000,000/day in money for bus fares. Which they don't. No idea where you came up with that asinine number. It's actually more like 19,000*2.50 or $47,500, which is just slightly different than $25 million.
Quote:
So, we have 19,000 trips * 1,354 road miles = 25,726,000 total bus miles driven a day.
25,726,000 total bus miles / 1,865 buses = 13,794 gallons of diesel a day.
More complete nonsense. I wonder how out of touch with reality someone has to be to really think everyone who boards a bus somehow magically boards every bus in operation for the entirety of every route. Probably the same type of person who thinks they collect $25 million in fares. Completely asinine.
 
Old 07-16-2014, 06:05 PM
 
3,982 posts, read 5,763,317 times
Reputation: 4039
Quote:
Originally Posted by impala096 View Post
John Q. isnít the only guy driving on the road though. The same 1-mile section of interstate that costs $1.6 million to build may carry 50,000 vehicles per day:

50,000 vehicles / 25 mpg = 2,000 gallons of taxable fuel each day
2,000 gallons * $0.903 = $1,806 tax to drivers each day
$1,806 x 365 x 20 year design life = $13,183,800 taxed over 20 years

So drivers are taxed $13,183,800 for a mile-section of interstate that costs $1,600,000 to construct (that seems very low to me, but Iím going with it for argument sake). Subtracting the cost to construct that mile of road, it leaves $11,583,800 for maintenance ($579,190/year).

Even if what you say is entirely true (it's not -- NY has the highest gas taxes at a combined $0.69/gal), it still only accounts for that 1 mile of busy road in the state with the highest gasoline taxes. What about the thousands of miles of interstate that maintain only 1000 cars per day (or even less)? How about the states that collect far less in fuel taxes per gallon? The road isn't any cheaper to build, it might cost a little less to maintain and, by a sheer usage driven revenue equation as above, the drivers on that span would be taxed 2% of the amount ($263,676) per mile over 20 years. And, you also haven't taken into account that a mile of Interstate bridge can cost $400,000,000 to build.

The truth is, fuel taxes and tolls only make up about 1/2 of what is spent on US roads each year. The remaining half is subsidized by other tax revenue. It was predicted that the Federal Highway Trustfund will start running out of money this summer due to the fact that the federal fuel tax has not been raised in over 20 years. To raise enough money by fuel taxes and tolls alone, the taxes and tolls would have to double.
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