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Old 08-12-2014, 05:16 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Yeah, like we all want to walk to work, or to the movies, or the bar, or wherever, in the dirt.
Doesn't seem that terrible. Unless it turns to mud after rain. My main focus of the post was on bicycles, though that was an afterthought.

 
Old 08-12-2014, 05:40 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Where are the cyclists going to cycle if there are no roads? Where are pedestrians going to walk, and get from place to place, if there are no roads? Dirt paths for both?
Okay, so let's assume we're talking about new, cycle-specific infrastructure. Let's say we're talking about a dedicated cycle track. In that case, we could use an electronic tracking system, like FasTrack, which is used locally for bridges and HOT express lanes. Track where one enters and exits and debit the account accordingly. But it would still be cheap, even for new infrastructure.

But! We were talking about existing infrastructure. Having an unprotected bike lane on the margin of a road adds next to no cost over the road's life. It's so cost-effective, it would be more expensive to account for users and bill them than provide it for free.
 
Old 08-12-2014, 05:52 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,527,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Okay, so let's assume we're talking about new, cycle-specific infrastructure. Let's say we're talking about a dedicated cycle track. In that case, we could use an electronic tracking system, like FasTrack, which is used locally for bridges and HOT express lanes. Track where one enters and exits and debit the account accordingly. But it would still be cheap, even for new infrastructure.

But! We were talking about existing infrastructure. Having an unprotected bike lane on the margin of a road adds next to no cost over the road's life. It's so cost-effective, it would be more expensive to account for users and bill them than provide it for free.
So the bicyclists want to be exempt from paying for the road and the bike lane? I see!
 
Old 08-12-2014, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,326,260 times
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LOL! Does anyone else feel like the UP forum is literally like a "bang your face on the wall" session that will never end? It's almost like watching Congress live on CSPAN; the conversations get murkier, even on topics that are seemingly simple and eventually, no one can agree on anything (e.g. apparently white flight never happened?). I really don't know why I come back, but I think I'm going to get help and sober up.
 
Old 08-12-2014, 06:52 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
LOL! Does anyone else feel like the UP forum is literally like a "bang your face on the wall" session that will never end? It's almost like watching Congress live on CSPAN; the conversations get murkier, even on topics that are seemingly simple and eventually, no one can agree on anything (e.g. apparently white flight never happened?). I really don't know why I come back, but I think I'm going to get help and sober up.
Half of it is. Any of the subsidy arguments, especially trying to prove something deep by saying X is subsidized* are really pointless from the start. I don't think of a transportation system as something that works by user fees in any cases.

There hasn't been that many detailed conversations on white flight. It could be interesting but the topic is rather loaded so it's rarely let's just looked at the numbers and see how big a factor white flight is. I remember a rather nerdy conversation I had about a mathematical model of white flight, though I didn't discuss the details nor read it.
 
Old 08-12-2014, 06:53 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
So the bicyclists want to be exempt from paying for the road and the bike lane? I see!
As a teenager with little to no income, I definitely did.
 
Old 08-12-2014, 08:38 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,812,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Doesn't seem that terrible. Unless it turns to mud after rain.
Well, that's just it -- dirt turns to mud after rain, and to dust if it doesn't rain. Unpleasant either way. It also develops ruts very easily (even from pedestrian traffic). The Romans didn't pave for cars, nor even just for carts.

Bicycle infrastructure is certainly cheap compared to road infrastructure, but it's not free; to get it to last you still need a decent base (as many a deteriorated multi-use path demonstrates). It will also require maintenance, especially in areas with frost. And there's right-of-way acquisition costs; if a bike lane is 1/2 the width of a road lane, it has 1/2 the ROW cost.
 
Old 08-13-2014, 08:15 AM
 
7,846 posts, read 5,284,110 times
Reputation: 4025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
How about the cyclists that use them pitching in? And the bus riders. And, and, and. Even pedestrians use the roadways.
Bicycles and pedestrians don't need to pitch in. I already explained why:

-Bicycles don't cause road damage
-Bicycle infrastructure cost nothing compared to roads
-Most cyclists on the road already have a car; thus double taxation.

Also, road funding is taken out of the general fund which includes income, property, and sales taxes. Most of it isn't paid for by gas taxes.
 
Old 08-13-2014, 08:29 AM
 
2,493 posts, read 2,192,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated View Post
Bicycles and pedestrians don't need to pitch in. I already explained why:

-Bicycles don't cause road damage
-Bicycle infrastructure cost nothing compared to roads
-Most cyclists on the road already have a car; thus double taxation.

Also, road funding is taken out of the general fund which includes income, property, and sales taxes. Most of it isn't paid for by gas taxes.

This very valid point has been made dozens of times in this thread. I see many posters on these forums get very defensive about their lifestyle choices when there are any discussions of how our public spaces can be improved; more bikes, less cars or more density, less sprawl.

The math and facts on this particular issue are not that complicated or hard to understand, yet this thread has 350+ posts, mostly repeating the same arguments over and over again.

Last edited by nei; 08-13-2014 at 12:36 PM.. Reason: unnecessary
 
Old 08-13-2014, 01:34 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
So the bicyclists want to be exempt from paying for the road and the bike lane? I see!
Well, I want to know what you want.

Several of us have already laid out arguments against charging bicyclists for existing, shared infrastructure. The infrastructure exists; the marginal cost of striping the unused margin of a road is almost zero; road damage by bicycles in almost zero.

So, besides some moralizing about "fairness," I want to know what it is, what concrete, definable, defensible actions you would like to see.
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