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Old 08-23-2014, 08:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
...Plenty of bike paths are useful, but some seemed geared for the mindset of "drive to the bike path parking lot and ride your bike back and forth for exercise".
Sounds like the practice behind a lot of public transit. In many places after PT aficionados spend billions of other people's money to build a system rationalized on efficiencies, environment, and spending less on roads, the only way the vast majority of commuters can get to the PT is to drive to a PT parking lot where they can then catch PT.

 
Old 08-23-2014, 08:55 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Sounds like the practice behind a lot of public transit. In many places after PT aficionados spend billions of other people's money to build a system rationalized on efficiencies, environment, and spending less on roads, the only way the vast majority of commuters can get to the PT is to drive to a PT parking lot where they can then catch PT.
Not quite the same, as those recreational bike path users are driving and then going anywhere but just there to go on the bike path like driving to a public park.

It's still less driving. In any case, I don't think the majority of transit users are park and ride users.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 09:08 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
A big reason for this is that bike paths were an after thought, added after cities fully developed.
The only available land was along creek and rivers and through parks.
Trying to add bike paths now in a developed city grid system means a cross street every 300 ft.
They're also built that way as nei said, for recreational purposes. Louisville had bike paths in some areas before development. In the area of town around my kids' elementary school, I liked it that the path crosses between the blocks.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Co...ed63d49938c2ca
 
Old 08-23-2014, 09:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Obviously, not. But Denmark is at least relevant for Denmark. However, was the discussion limited to the US? If so, say clearly you're not interested in elsewhere. Why must it be analogous to the US?



Those costs are paid for by people.
The major reason is that the Cities of Denmark are older than the cities of the US. The Cities of Denmark likely were never built with public transit in mind like the grid ones in the US but the grid is just as useful to an car as it is to an bus. Narrow streets and autos don't go together but the US for the most part didn't build cities with lots of narrow winding streets in the 19th and 20th century.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
The major reason is that the Cities of Denmark are older than the cities of the US. The Cities of Denmark likely were never built with public transit in mind like the grid ones in the US but the grid is just as useful to an car as it is to an bus. Narrow streets and autos don't go together but the US for the most part didn't build cities with lots of narrow streets in the 19th and 20th century.
Reason for what? I wasn't explaining anything there.

Copenhagen had 140,000 people in 1840, a bit bigger than Boston or Baltimore at the time but not hugely so. So everything but the oldest parts of the city wouldn't have to be much different from older American cities. There are some narrow streets in Copenhagen, but they don't look particularly in narrow in general. A commercial street:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.7058...3yoQ!2e0?hl=en

No expressways near the city center, but the suburbs look like they have a somewhat dense network of them.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 09:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Reason for what? I wasn't explaining anything there.

Copenhagen had 140,000 people in 1840, a bit bigger than Boston or Baltimore at the time but not hugely so. So everything but the oldest parts of the city wouldn't have to be much different from older American cities. There are some narrow streets in Copenhagen, but they don't look particularly in narrow in general. A commercial street:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.7058...3yoQ!2e0?hl=en

No expressways near the city center, but the suburbs look like they have a somewhat dense network of them.
It is not just that. Look at this street:



This street isn't much wider than my alley! The street in front of my house is wider and it has the nerve to somewhat curve.

or this one:



With the building jutting out a bit. These streets were not built with long distance travel to or from an street car in mind much less an automobile.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
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Gross oversimplification.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 09:47 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
It is not just that. Look at this street:

This street isn't much wider than my alley! The street in front of my house is wider and it has the nerve to somewhat curve.

or this one:


With the building jutting out a bit. These streets were not built with long distance travel to or from an street car in mind much less an automobile.
Yea, those are rather narrow. But you're focusing on the oldest section of Copenhagen, plenty (most?) of the city, certainly the metro isn't like that. Skimming streetview randomly, I found lots of streets wider than that. As for streetcars, you don't need every street to be wide for streetcars, just main streets as streetcar aren't running on every street.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 09:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Yea, those are rather narrow. But you're focusing on the oldest section of Copenhagen, plenty (most?) of the city, certainly the metro isn't like that. Skimming streetview randomly, I found lots of streets wider than that. As for streetcars, you don't need every street to be wide for streetcars, just main streets as streetcar aren't running on every street.

Not quite. People also need to be able to walk to an from street cars that are located on main streets and straight streets that don't wind like the very cul de sacs the urbanist dislike are part of it. All that curving just increases the distance you would have to walk. In addition horse drawn buses capable of carrying an dozen people or so were an major part of public transit and ran in places where street car rails were not laid down. I don't think you could easily fit an omni bus up these streets and certainly not going both directions. The City of Chicago, mecca for urbanist was incorporated in 1837 and is an mere 20 years old when the first public transit comes in. Copenhagen is much older and more developed and also gets public transit about the same time.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Not quite. People also need to be able to walk to an from street cars that are located on main streets and straight streets that don't wind like the very cul de sacs the urbanist dislike are part of it. All that curving just increases the distance you would have to walk.
Pre-streetcars, most people walked. Having a short distance was more important not less. The shortest distance between points is a diagonal, a grid can be longer. Copenhagen doesn't really have extra curves

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Co...dd7edde69467b8

another street I found in the center of Copenhagen. Obviously side streets are narrower.

Quote:
In addition horse drawn buses capable of carrying an dozen people or so were an major part of public transit and ran in places where street car rails were not laid down. I don't think you could easily fit an omni bus up these streets and certainly not going both directions. The City of Chicago, mecca for urbanist was incorporated in 1837 and is an mere 20 years old when the first public transit comes in. Copenhagen is much older and more developed and also gets public transit about the same time.
Most of Copenhagen grew after 1840 as I said, it wasn't much different in size from Baltimore or Boston.
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