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Old 07-17-2014, 07:23 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
Reputation: 33058

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
I'm talking about how many suburbs aren't physically contiguous. Think cul-de-sacs and subdivisions. The communities can and often do have community spirit; suburbs can have those as much as any other kind of development. But the problem is that sometimes those communities develop as separate entities from one another and this deprives them of interaction with one another. You end up with tightly knit communities that aren't connected at all to one another. It's great for those small communities, but it's detrimental to the larger metro community. Being raised in a suburb, I've seen this personally. Everyone knows everyone within their borders, but other subdivisions are mysterious unexplored lands full of strange beings. It makes the overall metro community seem smaller than it is, and while this might seem like a benefit to some, it makes the whole metro pretty provincial and closed-off, and thus unwilling to progress and accept new ideas or people. The small town, everyone-knows-everyone mentality is nice, but when it is isolated from the rest of the community it's not quite so great. And it's the result of modern land development methods that usually take place in today's suburbs.
That is no different from neighborhoods in many cities. This gets discussed on the Pittsburgh forum a great deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
That's an interesting point, but I have to counter that a centrallized area/downtown is usually what connects the city to the outside world. When outsiders go to [insert city/town name here], they usually look for the place where everything is-the jobs, the hotels, the bars and restaurants, the shops, etc. While some things might be further out, people coming to an unfamiliar city generally look for where everything is concentrated for ease of navigation; if a city is more decentralized, it will be harder to navigate. Basically, centralization makes the city more accessible to outsiders and thus better connects it to other communities.
The point is that everything isn't there. These downtowns usually have an abundance of restaurants and frou-frou stuff, but few or no clothing stores, hardware stores, household goods stores (such as Target).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment View Post
Suburbs are smaller cities where the wealthier choose to live to avoid the hustle and bustle of the big city. Either because it's too crowded, the crime is too high, or they just want somewhere with more land.

What's interesting, and what many people in suburbs probably don't realize, is how dependent their suburb is on the city metro they are apart of. Franklin Tennessee would be nothing without Nasvhille, Carmel Indiana would be nothing without Indianapolis, Mountain Brooke Alabama would be nothing without Birmingham, Madison Mississippi would be nothing without Jackson. Even though they take the wealthiest and most well to do citizens and some very bright urban planners who are creating the ultimate walkable small town complete with lots of nostalgic looking store fronts, these suburbs can't really exist on their own. Most of their citizens work in the city.

Where the line gets kind of hazy is in the much larger cities. The Inland Empire in California is a host of cities living together, all interconnected and interdependent. Besides Los Angeles, there really is no host city, and none are typical suburbs, just small municipalities, and lots of them.

Newark New Jersey wouldn't be what it is without New York City, but it is truly an independent city, across state lines with its own bustling downtown, own mayor, own city laws, etc.

Then you have cities like Atlanta which are ruled by the suburbs. 430,000 people in Atlanta, over 5.5 million in the metro. 5 million people live in suburbs, not the city.
Oh, for pity's sake! Of course suburbanites realize that, especially if they work in "the city". As an aside, many suburbanites do not work in "the city".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
No Fort Worth existed before suburbia and has it's own economic distinction. It exists with or without the influence of Dallas.
The old "that's different". Even if that were the case at one time, it's not the way things are now.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Way Up North
225 posts, read 230,040 times
Reputation: 420
Yes, suburbs can be cities. I used to live in Minneapolis. The largest suburb (Bloomington, where the Mall of America is) also happens to be the fourth largest city in Minnesota.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:07 AM
 
291 posts, read 312,124 times
Reputation: 578
Default Regarding Bellevue (or Redmond for That Matter) as Cities

So, I live on the Eastside in Seattle.

Bellevue and Redmond are cities as well as suburbs of Seattle. They have downtowns and their own industries. Bellevue, for example, is home to T Mobile, Drugstore.com, Eddie Bauer, Expedia, while Redmond is the home of Microsoft and AT&T Wireless services. In the case of T Mobile, Expedia, Microsoft, and Eddie Bauer, they were founded in these suburbs and did not move here from Seattle. And then you have Everett, to the north, which hosts Boeing, also founded in Everett.

So in these cases, the suburbs are hardly parasites on Seattle's booming economy. It's a much more balanced geography, and that comes in large part I think from the fact that Seattle has always been a town where people would rather live nearer to the trees.

The cities are bikeable, but not walkable like Seattle. Bellevue's development was strongly influenced by the extremely-pro-car Freeman family.

Both cities have downtowns but the downtowns are nothing like Seattle's downtown.

On the other hand, Bellevue is more walkable than Los Angeles, which is supposed to be a city, so I don't know what you make of that.

Still, Everett, Bellevue and Redmond are suburbs of Seattle. Seattle has the port and hosts most of the cultural events (though we have many of our own).

If a suburb can't be a city, then I'm not sure what you'd call these three. They could all exist on their own though it's doubtful we'd have the high standard of living and excellent synergies we have now.

Seattle metropolitan area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:37 PM
 
3,944 posts, read 4,037,693 times
Reputation: 4395
In my opinion, a suburb can be a city as long as it has:

1) A substantial professional (or tech/manufacturing) local job base (ie, not just city services, retail, and restaurant and the others go to the main city).
2) Nightlife, housing, and activities appropriate for various age groups
3) Some cultural arts of its own (ie legitimate museums, zoo, opera, symphony).

IMO, the suburbs in my area have a substantial job base, but are lacking in the activities for young adults (and housing to some degree - ie apartments and condos) (and elderly adults as well - poor transit and lack of other housing options beyond single-family) and cultural arts. The community college is cut off from the city, and the night life is heavily regulated.

They use 'family friendly' as the moniker to mean 'don't live here if you don't have kids - you'll be bored to death'.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:49 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
Reputation: 33058
^^There are many city neighborhoods that don't have all these amenities, either. Not everyone is interested in "nightlife", e.g. bars and dance clubs. My suburban city has a theater group and other cultural activities. No symphony, but good grief! Many cities don't have a symphony, either. It can be quite a trek from many city neighborhoods to the symphony hall, too.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:20 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,819,994 times
Reputation: 9769
My suburban town has a job base (small, but it certainly exists -- for instance, a medical presence at one border adjacent to a hospital in the next town, and a specialty inpatient facility in the town itself), nightlife (one club, notable for P.Diddy getting a police escort there), and a zoo. You still wouldn't confuse it for anything but a bedroom community, really. The suburbs which are more city-like, in that they have the day-to-day practical stuff in a traditional downtown area, are the poorer ones.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,760,401 times
Reputation: 1616
There are several museums in Toronto's suburbs but they're mostly small and not that well known except maybe to a niche or nearby residents. However, that's also the only kind of museum many smaller cities have too, Toronto and Ottawa have big important museums, but smaller cities less so. Like there's a streetcar museum in a rural part of Milton (a Toronto suburb), a couple mining museums in Sudbury, various pop culture museums in Niagara Falls, Clay and Glass gallery here in Waterloo, McMichael Gallery in Vaughan (also a Toronto suburb).

Many Toronto suburbs will have museums dedicated to the local history of the area, small public art galleries and a performing arts centre. They'll also have office buildings, industrial parks, and apartment buildings, and almost all of them (exceptions being Pickering and maybe Ajax) have older town centres with shops and restaurants. Sometimes bars too

They're not of the same profile as the Royal Ontario Museum or Art Gallery of Ontario in Toronto, or the Museum of Civilization (technically across from Ottawa in Gatineau, Quebec)
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:52 PM
 
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
9,423 posts, read 18,324,231 times
Reputation: 11902
I think in the coming decades newer suburbs that are connected to new rapid transit/light rail lines will probably get more dense with TOD and start to gain their own distinctions as cities rather than just suburbs. This includes cities like...

Bellevue, WA
Aurora, CO
Tempe and Mesa, AZ
Plano, TX
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Old 07-17-2014, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,760,401 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOverdog View Post
In my opinion, a suburb can be a city as long as it has:

1) A substantial professional (or tech/manufacturing) local job base (ie, not just city services, retail, and restaurant and the others go to the main city).
2) Nightlife, housing, and activities appropriate for various age groups
3) Some cultural arts of its own (ie legitimate museums, zoo, opera, symphony).

IMO, the suburbs in my area have a substantial job base, but are lacking in the activities for young adults (and housing to some degree - ie apartments and condos) (and elderly adults as well - poor transit and lack of other housing options beyond single-family) and cultural arts. The community college is cut off from the city, and the night life is heavily regulated.

They use 'family friendly' as the moniker to mean 'don't live here if you don't have kids - you'll be bored to death'.
So I personally consider Vaughan a suburb of Toronto, but

1) It has an industrial area probably bigger than any in Toronto (also the railyard is bigger than any in Toronto).
https://www.google.ca/maps/search/pe.../data=!3m1!1e3

A few office buildings, though not as many as other suburbs and mostly scattered among industrial parks
https://www.google.ca/maps/search/pe...aGPMWiE_Hg!2e0

2)
An auto-oriented "entertainment district"
https://www.google.ca/maps/search/pe.../data=!3m1!1e3
Toronto's subway is being extended to this area. Other transit includes a couple commuter rail station, BRT (under construction) and regular bus transit.

Condos between the outlet mall and the amusement park
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.83144...-Rg0oF8EJA!2e0

And also in a town centre (was barely more than a rural hamlet pre-WWII)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.78454...lkFLOqrY8Q!2e0
It also has a cutesy historic themed "mall" that occasionally hosts a farmer's market.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.78527...x7t7iBbeCg!2e0

And around this shopping area
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.81042...lIuSoJhrZA!2e0

3)
McMichael Galleries
https://www.google.ca/maps/search/pe.../data=!3m1!1e3
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:11 PM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,048,279 times
Reputation: 2192
Fort Worth (in Tarrant County, TX) has always been distinct from Dallas (in Dallas County, TX)
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