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Old 08-20-2014, 01:21 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,527,356 times
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^^Exactly! I was thinking after I posted, that's like saying it's only the placement of the parks, not the crime (or lack thereof) in the park that is of an urban planning concern.

As long as real urban planners think school performance is irrelevant (and I'm not sure they do), families will not relocate into the cities in great numbers. If the only slots in the public schools worth sending your kids to are in charters and magnets, that doesn't leave much for those who don't get in. Not all can afford private schools, and some who maybe can prefer to use their money for other things, like saving for their kids' college educations.
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Old 08-20-2014, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
4,893 posts, read 7,652,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkarch View Post
That is kind of like saying police, fire departments or hospitals are not urban planning issues. At the very least, you have to consider how children will access the schools since that is a transportation consideration. If the school system is so bad that everyone is forced to shuttle their kids around every morning to a handful of private schools, that is a huge logistical problem urban planners have to account for. Likewise, if an area is void of private schools and therefore doesn't support families living there (aside from ones that can't or don't see a need to invest in their childrens education), that also affects zoning decisions (less parks, more jails).
The performance of a city's police and fire departments can be related to their location. The location of hospitals, like the location of schools, is an urban planning issue.

I guess the bottom line--for me--is: how can urban planning address the performance of a hospital or school?
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:34 PM
 
5,076 posts, read 8,499,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
The performance of a city's police and fire departments can be related to their location. The location of hospitals, like the location of schools, is an urban planning issue.

I guess the bottom line--for me--is: how can urban planning address the performance of a hospital or school?
It's the same as any kind of amenity required by people living in the area. What good are roads if they can't be driven on, or a rail system that doesn't run? Same thing with the schools.

Not to say an urban planner can direct school funding and performance, but it has to be taken into account in overall design. It's a fundamental component of making an area attractive and livable. Think of it like an electrical grid - you could build everything else, but if everyone has to power their homes on gas generators a lot of people are going to go live some place else where they don't have to put up with that kind of hassle.
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:37 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
33,876 posts, read 42,076,783 times
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Y'all realize that a lot of infrastructure decisions on what's to be built are based on the area's Master Plan and Zoning. What drives the numbers are the max build out numbers at "highest and best use" allowed. Which may never happen but the infrastructure still has to be built to support it.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:13 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,527,356 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
The performance of a city's police and fire departments can be related to their location. The location of hospitals, like the location of schools, is an urban planning issue.

I guess the bottom line--for me--is: how can urban planning address the performance of a hospital or school?
In relation to response time yes. For other issues, not so much.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
In relation to response time yes. For other issues, not so much.
Exactly.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:41 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
No, I'm not going to provide examples. I have been reprimanded for "dredging up old threads", etc too many times to go to all the trouble of finding this stuff just to see my posts deleted.
Thanks for not bringing them up. Yes, I think lots of old quotes from other threads tend to hijack a thread, links since they take up less space and others uninterested can skip past quickly. These quotes rarely prove anything, as you can find a few unusual posts arguing for almost any belief. And talking about the views of the forum rather than actual ideas is just off topic, and can make this forum seem like an "insider's loop". I could never understand what the point of all those quotes were.

Quote:
I don't think you can make such a dichotomy about schools. Performance of schools is certainly a concern of parents, and way more important to most of them than having a school within walking distance. If you want to keep families in the city, and keep hipsters in the city after they've had kids, especially if you expect them to use the public schools, you have to be concerned with the public schools' performance.
Sure, schools are very important to a city (or any other place). It's an important urban issue. But how does that make it part of urban planning? Conversely, there are things part of urban planning (such as general urban geography) that don't really matter for "getting people to stay in the city".

Edit: Forgot to add: yes, there are plenty of threads on this forum that don't really fit urban planning. What specifically does fit urban planning is described on the forum's sticky.

Last edited by nei; 08-21-2014 at 01:42 PM..
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:37 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,527,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Thanks for not bringing them up. Yes, I think lots of old quotes from other threads tend to hijack a thread, links since they take up less space and others uninterested can skip past quickly. These quotes rarely prove anything, as you can find a few unusual posts arguing for almost any belief. And talking about the views of the forum rather than actual ideas is just off topic, and can make this forum seem like an "insider's loop". I could never understand what the point of all those quotes were.



Sure, schools are very important to a city (or any other place). It's an important urban issue. But how does that make it part of urban planning? Conversely, there are things part of urban planning (such as general urban geography) that don't really matter for "getting people to stay in the city".
You're welcome. I also think that anyone who has been following this forum for years, such as the person I was responding to, knows exactly what I'm referring to w/o me needing to dig up specific quotes.

I frankly think this forum covers general urban geography constantly, relating it to why people like the city.

If nothing else, I think a general awareness of the schools, and support of local schools IS an urban planning issue.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:38 PM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,347,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Sure, schools are very important to a city (or any other place). It's an important urban issue. But how does that make it part of urban planning? Conversely, there are things part of urban planning (such as general urban geography) that don't really matter for "getting people to stay in the city".
Well people posting in urban planning seem to be fascinated with streets, retail shopping, parks, buses, heavy rail, light rail, subway, employment centers, even parking lots as part of urban planning. There's almost a desperation about how things need to be "entertaining" or "interesting", "walkable", etc. in other words meeting desires of residents that is apparently part of "urban planning". How are schools different?

I guess maybe you need to define urban planning so that people understand what it's supposed to include and what it's supposed to exclude.

Apparently urban planning cares about the functions carried out within some buildings: restaurants and coffee shops. There is a deserved stereotype here. Should I presume that urban planning excludes hospitals, police stations, courts, jails, fire stations, etc. along with schools?

This entire thread is about an "urban lifestyle" and initially complains about the near desperate attempts to force people into "urban" lifestyles. One must to wonder what "urban planning" is other than code for a density worshipping cult. Is it any wonder the reputation is that this is about a utopia for a minority group of mostly single and childless lotus-eating, condo-dwelling hipsters? Mocha frappuccino to go.
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,499,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Well people posting in urban planning seem to be fascinated with streets, retail shopping, parks, buses, heavy rail, light rail, subway, employment centers, even parking lots as part of urban planning. There's almost a desperation about how things need to be "entertaining" or "interesting", "walkable", etc. in other words meeting desires of residents that is apparently part of "urban planning". How are schools different?

I guess maybe you need to define urban planning so that people understand what it's supposed to include and what it's supposed to exclude.

Apparently urban planning cares about the functions carried out within some buildings: restaurants and coffee shops. There is a deserved stereotype here. Should I presume that urban planning excludes hospitals, police stations, courts, jails, fire stations, etc. along with schools?

This entire thread is about an "urban lifestyle" and initially complains about the near desperate attempts to force people into "urban" lifestyles. One must to wonder what "urban planning" is other than code for a density worshipping cult. Is it any wonder the reputation is that this is about a utopia for a minority group of mostly single and childless lotus-eating, condo-dwelling hipsters? Mocha frappuccino to go.
You should probably look into taking an Intro to Urban Planning class, that would help with any confusing you seem to be having with urban planning.

I think you are confusing what urban planning is with urban lifestyle which isn't the same thing.
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