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Streetcars have much less capacity than subways, they're much closer to buses. And they have to deal with surface transit so they must be slower. A streetcar isn't going to make a huge dent in an overcrowded subway. Another subway line will.
The Second Avenue subway project in NY is projected to cost over $17 billion when its done. Waste of money imo, and would be better spent on a surface streetcar system that gives you much more bang for your buck, plus NY subways are gross.
Seriously? A surface streetcar system in NYC in the area of the 2nd Avenue Subway would do nothing, zilch, nada. It would be completely worthless.
Streetcars have much less capacity than subways, they're much closer to buses. And they have to deal with surface transit so they must be slower. A streetcar isn't going to make a huge dent in an overcrowded subway. Another subway line will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler
Seriously? A surface streetcar system in NYC in the area of the 2nd Avenue Subway would do nothing, zilch, nada. It would be completely worthless.
That might be true if money were no object. But we're talking about $17 billion here. For that amount you could buy an entire new light rail/streetcar network consisting of hundreds of miles extending across the city, not just a 10 mile extension on one street. I wouldn't call that useless by any means. Modern light rail is closer to subways in terms of capacity. Like subways cars can be linked together to expand capacity as needed. You can't do that with buses or BRT. There's no comparison.
That would be true if money were no object. But we're talking about $17 billion here. For that amount you could buy a entire new light rail/streetcar network consisting of hundreds of miles extending across the city, not just a 10 mile extension on one street. I wouldn't call that useless by any means. Modern light rail/streetcars are closer to subways in terms of capacity. Like subways cars can be linked together to expand capacity as needed. You can't do that with buses or BRT. There's no comparison.
They're useless because they're not much faster than buses, it's functionally little improvement. A NYC subway train is usually 8 cars long, occasionally 10. You can't fit a train that long on the street, even four cars long is pushing it. I suppose if you gave the light rail signal priority it might go at a decent speed.
If NYC were Paris, $30 billion would buy 125 miles of subway lines.
That might be true if money were no object. But we're talking about $17 billion here. For that amount you could buy an entire new light rail/streetcar network consisting of hundreds of miles extending across the city, not just a 10 mile extension on one street. I wouldn't call that useless by any means. Modern light rail is closer to subways in terms of capacity. Like subways cars can be linked together to expand capacity as needed. You can't do that with buses or BRT. There's no comparison.
Streetcars in NYC would be useless beyond a novelty level. A city like New York needs subways.
They're useless because they're not much faster than buses, it's functionally little improvement. A NYC subway train is usually 8 cars long, occasionally 10. You can't fit a train that long on the street, even four cars long is pushing it. I suppose if you gave the light rail signal priority it might go at a decent speed.
If NYC were Paris, $30 billion would buy 125 miles of subway lines.
There are many reasons why LRT is much faster than buses: Signal priority, right of way, reduced headways, level boarding, multiple entry and exits, ticket prepurchases, on and on. Even streetcars running in mixed traffic are faster than buses due to reduced headways, level boarding, signal priority, etc. Wheelchair access is another big one. Wheelchair passengers don't have to be manually strapped in by the driver when they get on, and then manually strapped out again when they want to get off. Just that one thing is a huge time-consuming process on the bus. I could go on for hours but you get the idea.
There are many reasons why LRT is much faster than buses: Signal priority, right of way, reduced headways, level boarding, multiple entry and exits, ticket prepurchases, on and on. Even streetcars running in mixed traffic are faster than buses due to reduced headways, level boarding, signal priority, etc. Wheelchair access is another big one. Wheelchair passengers don't have to be manually strapped in by the driver when they get on, and then manually strapped out again when they want to get off. Just that one thing is a huge time-consuming process on the bus. I could go on for hours but you get the idea.
I have ridden the CTA bus, they never strap wheel chaired occupants on. They can sometimes strap themselves. The bus is so slow that the wheel chair won't move.
There is an difference between rapid transit like an CTA EL car and light rail like an street car. Street cars don't have reduced head ways vs. buses nor can they go around an street car that is broken down ahead on the same track.They also can't go around cars that have broken down or parked on the tracks.
Newer buses have level boarding and BRT has it's own right of way. Normal buses also have more than one entry and exit. Street cars and rail cars typically have only two per unit. Only some street car systems have signal priority. Ticket prepurchase is also an feature of BRT and an street car that picks up off the street won't have it.
Rapid transit systems like New York's and Chicago have those features. The reason why light rail is used is because they can not get an dedicated right of way for the whole line. It's too expensive. Light rail/street cars can run with traffic and make an dash to or from an dedicated right of way or they don't have an dedicated right of way at all. They do have more capacity per unit than an bus, but an rapid transit car like an EL car or an New York subway car can hold even more(they are wider and can be run in longer consists--CTA trains can get to 8 cars long).
With rapid transit you have an dedicated right of way all the way down the line. With street cars and light Rail you don't.
This saves an lot of money in some situations. Now light rail systems can use subways the way buses can also use subways or rapid transit use an subway but with rapid transit the subway was built because there was no other way to put the train in. Light rail and street cars can in theory save you from having to put in the subway or elevated tracks or tearing down buildings, but at the cost of lower maximum capacity. You simply take away a lane or two of traffic for the cars and let the train run down it. An rapid transit train like the EL could never run down the street with traffic due to the third rail and it's width(they also can't take really sharp turns.). It can cross the street like any other train, but not run with the cars.
Light rail is sort the medium sized solution. More expensive and less flexible than an bus, but cheaper than say an rapid transit line. It is great for cities that lack an rapid transit system or for which an rapid transit system would be overkill. It is great for areas that need a little more capacity than the bus can provide but you don't put it in instead of buses(buse are more flexible) or choose it when you need an rapid transit train(they don't have the same potential of speed or capacity).
Newer models can have lower floors, but I don't think its possible for buses to have level boarding which would require some incredible precision driving skills . But it is a good thing the new fleet of CTA buses come with a bullet proof glass partition for the driver which could come in handy when you're in Chicago. Maybe they could issue a standard bullet proof vest for every passenger on the bus? hehe j/k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
If NYC were Paris, $30 billion would buy 125 miles of subway lines.
Yeah, not sure why subways and some light rail systems seem to cost like ten times more in the US than anywhere else. Though quality is so much worse. Subway stations in Paris and other cities in Europe look like an art gallery, while a typical subway station in NY or Chicago looks like someone just dug a big hole in the ground and pour raw concrete into it, with just bare concrete floor and walls don't even bother to paint it. Looks more like a sewer than a proper train station. Big city corruption? Kickbacks? May have something to do with it.
Like subways cars can be linked together to expand capacity as needed. You can't do that with buses or BRT. There's no comparison.
This is a bit nitpicking, but the technology to "train" buses with only a driver at the lead is 10, maybe 20, years in to the future, and well within the development and construction time of many American large-scale infrastructure projects.
Newer models can have lower floors, but I don't think its possible for buses to have level boarding which would require some incredible precision driving skills . But it is a good thing the new fleet of CTA buses come with a bullet proof glass partition for the driver which could come in handy when you're in Chicago. Maybe they could issue a standard bullet proof vest for every passenger on the bus? hehe j/k.
Yeah, not sure why subways and some light rail systems seem to cost like ten times more in the US than anywhere else. Though quality is so much worse. Subway stations in Paris and other cities in Europe look like an art gallery, while a typical subway station in NY or Chicago looks like someone just dug a big hole in the ground and pour raw concrete into it, with just bare concrete floor and walls don't even bother to paint it. Looks more like a sewer than a proper train station. Big city corruption? Kickbacks? May have something to do with it.
I've noticed that the best subway systems in the US tend to be the ugliest looking.
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