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Old 11-13-2015, 12:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
This makes some sense for future housing, but there are already millions of existing homes that are very spread out.

Further, even if you compress the size of housing subdivisions, employment locations, shopping, schools, etc. are still spread out. Devising a transit plan that would meet the needs of a people that have activities all over is problematic to say the least, particularly to create enough patronage for the trains or even for buses.


My brother's family lives outside McDonald Pa- he works in Bellevue, his wife works in Washington, PA, the boy attends school in Imperial and works in Crafton. Other people in the neighborhood work all over, its a different world now than it was decades ago when many thousands worked at the Homestead Works or River Rouge. Not just homes are spread out, but also businesses.
Well, what you're asking is "do we provide poor transit for everyone or high quality transit for a specific corridor?" That's a whole other thread.

But let's say we built a master-planned community to mimic pre-1940s streetcar suburbs, but on a larger scale. Between walking, biking, Uber, same-day delivery, and community buses, most people could meet their day-to-day secondary needs without providing extensive private car infrastructure. Primary needs, like getting to work, could be provided by a high-frequency, fast PT backbone (BRT, LRT, heavy rail, etc.). And you could choose to live there, or not, if that community matched your needs. Need to have 3 cars and drive everywhere? There's a lot of the country that accomodates.

What I'm saying is that the argument that there isn't enough density for PT spending to make sense in new outer-ring developments is the result of a choice developers and our elected officials make, but is not some natural state of things. PT can be a sensible investment for new development, even as old development may be low-density.

And, again, I want others to clearly understand that moderate density across a neighborhood, town, or city does not preclude detached SFHs or necessitate everyone living in apartment towers. The form of housing is a point of contention for many who oppose even moderate densities, so I like to reiterate this point often.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Well, what you're asking is "do we provide poor transit for everyone or high quality transit for a specific corridor?" That's a whole other thread.

But let's say we built a master-planned community to mimic pre-1940s streetcar suburbs, but on a larger scale. Between walking, biking, Uber, same-day delivery, and community buses, most people could meet their day-to-day secondary needs without providing extensive private car infrastructure. Primary needs, like getting to work, could be provided by a high-frequency, fast PT backbone (BRT, LRT, heavy rail, etc.). And you could choose to live there, or not, if that community matched your needs. Need to have 3 cars and drive everywhere? There's a lot of the country that accomodates.
Problems inherit in this "master plan"

Walking...limited in range and problematic in bad weather(snow fall and people not clearing sidewalks)

Biking...similar problems

Uber....waiting for the driver to show up

Same day delivery---Range(heck I live in an City and I can't get everything I wan't delivered), Time( most retail closes a few hours after 9-5) there would be an rush of deliveries between 6-8. Cost(it is going to cost more paying this guy to drop the thing off than you might burn in gas). As well as being tied up waiting for the guy to show up.

Community Buses( Transfers, and hours that it runs). How on earth is the night shift supposed to get to work at 10 when the bus stopped running at 8. How is the 1st shift supposed to get to the factory when the bus won't run till 6 but you need to be at work at 6?

What made the 1940ies work much better was an little invention called the house wife. She didn't need to drop the child at daycare or pick the child up before they charge extra because it was mostly provided at home. She could wait all day for delivery. She didn't need the car or could drop the husband off when needed because she didn't have to be at work at an certain time or worry about being stuck at work.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Problems inherit in this "master plan"

Walking...limited in range and problematic in bad weather(snow fall and people not clearing sidewalks)

Biking...similar problems

Uber....waiting for the driver to show up

Same day delivery---Range(heck I live in an City and I can't get everything I wan't delivered), Time( most retail closes a few hours after 9-5) there would be an rush of deliveries between 6-8. Cost(it is going to cost more paying this guy to drop the thing off than you might burn in gas). As well as being tied up waiting for the guy to show up.

Community Buses( Transfers, and hours that it runs). How on earth is the night shift supposed to get to work at 10 when the bus stopped running at 8. How is the 1st shift supposed to get to the factory when the bus won't run till 6 but you need to be at work at 6?

What made the 1940ies work much better was an little invention called the house wife. She didn't need to drop the child at daycare or pick the child up before they charge extra because it was mostly provided at home. She could wait all day for delivery. She didn't need the car or could drop the husband off when needed because she didn't have to be at work at an certain time or worry about being stuck at work.
I won't even touch the obviously demeaning phrase "little invention called the house wife" because it makes you look like a pretty silly person I shouldn't even bother arguing with, but oh well, I'm taking the bait anyway.

As for your other concerns I much prefer waiting for an Uber and walking in bad weather to sitting in traffic and not being able to read behind the wheel. You are welcome to have your own preference but your opinion is not objective fact. If you don't want to live in a dense, walking and transit-oriented community, it's easy to just not live there.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Problems inherit in this "master plan"

Walking...limited in range and problematic in bad weather(snow fall and people not clearing sidewalks)

Biking...similar problems

Uber....waiting for the driver to show up

Same day delivery---Range(heck I live in an City and I can't get everything I wan't delivered), Time( most retail closes a few hours after 9-5) there would be an rush of deliveries between 6-8. Cost(it is going to cost more paying this guy to drop the thing off than you might burn in gas). As well as being tied up waiting for the guy to show up.

Community Buses( Transfers, and hours that it runs). How on earth is the night shift supposed to get to work at 10 when the bus stopped running at 8. How is the 1st shift supposed to get to the factory when the bus won't run till 6 but you need to be at work at 6?

What made the 1940ies work much better was an little invention called the house wife. She didn't need to drop the child at daycare or pick the child up before they charge extra because it was mostly provided at home. She could wait all day for delivery. She didn't need the car or could drop the husband off when needed because she didn't have to be at work at an certain time or worry about being stuck at work.
As I had said:

Quote:
And you could choose to live there, or not, if that community matched your needs. Need to have 3 cars and drive everywhere? There's a lot of the country that accomodates.
Night shift? Well, cars aren't banned, just not the focus of the built form. If you need a car, you can drive one, but it isn't given the modal preference that it usually enjoys.

Waiting for Uber? Well, in the winter I wait for the car to warm up. At least with Uber, if I plan ahead I can have little or no wait.

Walking and biking? Well, lots of communities don't collapse when it snows, so I'm assuming they've figured out something. /snark. But, on a serious note, cars are dangerous in the snow and on ice, so they aren't a fool-proof alternative in bad weather. And, because it doesn't snow everywhere, this critique doesn't apply everywhere.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:34 PM
 
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No there is nothing deeming about that. It just points to the very different situation and transportation needs of modern families.

An car simplifies an lot of things and thoose are things more useful to say an worker heading to an central business district.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:37 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post

Community Buses( Transfers, and hours that it runs). How on earth is the night shift supposed to get to work at 10 when the bus stopped running at 8. How is the 1st shift supposed to get to the factory when the bus won't run till 6 but you need to be at work at 6?
Just because a bus can't work for 100% of people's commutes that doesn't mean it's useless.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Just because a bus can't work for 100% of people's commutes that doesn't mean it's useless.
There are uses for transit, but it is often the most inefficient way to get things done. Where it works well is when large numbers of people need to get to the same place.Where it is weak is where thing are more scattered and distant. What an car can do in 30 mins. takes 1 hour by CTA.
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Old 11-13-2015, 08:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
There are uses for transit, but it is often the most inefficient way to get things done. Where it works well is when large numbers of people need to get to the same place.Where it is weak is where thing are more scattered and distant. What an car can do in 30 mins. takes 1 hour by CTA.
A city designed wherein you can walk around your neighborhood or to the local library or store, use Uber or a community bus to get to most places within it, and take a PT backbone to employment nodes or the CBD might not work for everyone. But, if such a master planned community didn't work for you, then don't live in it. It's that simple. Most of the country is, for better or worse, built for the car, so you have plenty of alternatives to choose from.
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Old 11-13-2015, 09:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
A city designed wherein you can walk around your neighborhood or to the local library or store, use Uber or a community bus to get to most places within it, and take a PT backbone to employment nodes or the CBD might not work for everyone. But, if such a master planned community didn't work for you, then don't live in it. It's that simple. Most of the country is, for better or worse, built for the car, so you have plenty of alternatives to choose from.
This would require an level of planning far beyond an city. People who live in the city sometimes need to work outside of said city. An community bus works well on an college campus, but is weak outside of that extreme density and controlled setting(i.e. Students on schedules). Employment nodes can be all over the place and there is employment in between said nodes(Retail, Restaurants). And people need to be able to get to work early, late, or 24/7.


In addition some types of employment require 24/7 public transit or would need transit at odd hours. I have needed to get to work at 4a.m. but not outside of the city of Chicago. I have needed to get to work at 6-8.a.m. in the burbs and public transit is on a very slow schedule till 6(i.e. Buses every 30 mins, when it would take me 1-2 hours to get there by bus).

The people whom public transit works best for are office workers and students. People whom public transit can be weak for are construction workers, health care workers(i.e. the ones who work night shift), factory workers, and sometimes even retail workers.
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Old 11-14-2015, 02:15 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Please keep the thread discussion on subways
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