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Old 09-07-2014, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,063 posts, read 16,081,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post

But back to the original topic, in Colorado, "most" cities charge water & sewer tap fees, park fees, school fees, etc for new construction as a flat fee per unit. A big house on a big lot pays the same as a small house on a small lot, so therefore flat household fees DO encourage sprawl.
California uses Mello-Roos, which is usually based on square feet. Water is metered in all but the oldest neighborhoods. Where I live, the city charges less for multi-family or apartment sewer connections than SFH. I mean, I guess it make sense but since supposedly more people could live there... but I live alone in a SFH and the fee encourages shoebox living.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:12 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,988 posts, read 41,967,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
As far as "inner suburbs", etc, Youngstown's population at its peak (1930, 84 years ago now) was only 170,002, and has declined every decade since, except for a small gain in 1950, likely the result of the post-war boom. So I'm saying, I don't think there were a lot of "inner-ring" and "outer-ring" burbs there. In fact, I'd say Youngstown is probably an outlier.

Youngstown, Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Youngstown is extreme in inner city decline, but similar patterns have occurred elsewhere in the northern US. I'm not sure why the city's population decline says anything about whether they're "inner-ring" or "outer-ring" suburbs. Youngstown's MSA population is 560,000, some counties looked like they had mild postwar growth. But it looks like there's a lot outside Youngstown. Not that familiar with the area, though.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:15 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,988 posts, read 41,967,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Depends on the market. Where I live people really like garages due to the bleeping snow(and having to possibly scrape or clear off your car from late November till April.). Any house will sell if cheap enough, but people don't always want cheap.
Obviously they're useful in snowy climates. What didn't make sense was that you mentioned it as a need. We get more snow in total than Chicago (Midway Airport) though a bit less snowy days.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:26 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,350,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
...The east side of Youngstown--the least developed side--may have some substandard housing. There was some hasty development over there after WWII. (there was post-war development all over the city, but the cheap stuff went over there) But, other than that, the housing stock is only substandard due to neglect/abandonment. The concentration of this is in the city, but the disinvestment is spreading into the adjacent suburbs.
Sounds like your fear is that people don't want to live in the city. If new housing is being built elsewhere (your fear) then clearly the city and the housing there are undesirable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
.Everyone's lifestyle is subsidized by "other people's tax dollars."
You were complaining about subsidizing others. Now you realize your lifestyle is being subsidized by others. Perhaps your fear is that your lifestyle will be unsustainable when there aren't enough other folks near you to subsidize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
There is a surplus of houses, because the population of the metro is shrinking. The metro is shrinking because there aren't a lot of jobs to draw people to the area, in large numbers.
If the housing is desirable then you shouldn't need to worry about development elsewhere. If new development is occurring elsewhere (your fear) then either the existing houses are undesirable or don't otherwise serve the needs of the people that would be purchasing in the new development. Nothing like sticking your head in the sand and denying the undesirability of the existing housing stock (for whatever reason) and expecting that the market will somehow just change its mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
I'll freely admit I don't like sprawl, but I don't want to restrict its development. I just don't think it should be subsidized with tax dollars.
Well it sounds like "sprawl" is the only economic activity occurring where you are since you've admitted the existing "non-sprawl" is deteriorating, abandoned, and otherwise dying. Everything has a life cycle. Perhaps your real complaint is that you expect the benefit of everyone else's tax dollars but don't expect to have to share the benefit. I'm guessing that the "new development" residents are much larger contributors of "tax dollars" in any event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C View Post
I believe the high crime and bad schools are symptoms of disinvestment, in part, caused by migration to the suburbs. But, it's a vicious circle; at this point, the continued migration to the suburbs is caused by the high crime and bad schools. As I pointed out earlier, though, the continued construction of sprawl is now causing the same problems in the suburbs adjacent to Youngstown.
Life cycle - and "sprawl" isn't the explanation or source for all your problems.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:37 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,003 posts, read 102,592,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Youngstown is extreme in inner city decline, but similar patterns have occurred elsewhere in the northern US. I'm not sure why the city's population decline says anything about whether they're "inner-ring" or "outer-ring" suburbs. Youngstown's MSA population is 560,000, some counties looked like they had mild postwar growth. But it looks like there's a lot outside Youngstown. Not that familiar with the area, though.
My point was, Y-town is not a huge city with rings of suburbs. This is clearly not a rural area; I don't see how extending the gas lines to this portion of the county will "encourage sprawl".
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:46 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,350,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
California uses Mello-Roos, which is usually based on square feet. Water is metered in all but the oldest neighborhoods. Where I live, the city charges less for multi-family or apartment sewer connections than SFH. I mean, I guess it make sense but since supposedly more people could live there... but I live alone in a SFH and the fee encourages shoebox living.
The Sacramento water rates for residential are based upon number of rooms and type of housing (SFH vs MF). The fee is inexplicably less for MF housing up to 7 rooms per unit but is the same as SFH for 8+ rooms. Not that familiar with any MF that has 8+ rooms per unit nor what might constitute a "room". However it's quite possible that a 3 bedroom apartment would pay the same as a SF house by the time you add kitchen, bathrooms, dining room, etc.
http://portal.cityofsacramento.org/~...32014WATER.pdf

Despite the apparent arbitrary nature of the fee, I doubt anyone would decide to live in a shoebox to "save" $10/month. If the shoebox was a condo the other fees would overshadow any "savings".
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:10 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,350,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
My point was, Y-town is not a huge city with rings of suburbs. This is clearly not a rural area; I don't see how extending the gas lines to this portion of the county will "encourage sprawl".
Not even clear what the definition of "sprawl" would be. Seems to me at best this would just be a growing area surrounded by dying, decaying city. To the extent any growth would result, the growing area would be populated by people that don't want to live wherever JR_C is. I would think a dying city would be interested in encouraging growth anywhere it might appear or be cultivated. In any event, JR_C's comment is simply an expression of irrational speculation and fear. The folks in the article just want natural gas like most of the other citizens of the area have. JR_C is free to lobby his local councilmember (or whatever they are called up there) to oppose a gas line to another area to the extent the city would have anything to do with it. I suspect his representative would take the opposition with a grain of salt considering how such a gas line would benefit all the property owner/voters in the underserved area and isn't really going to negatively impact JR_C anywhere except in his imagination.
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
4,896 posts, read 7,657,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
My point was, Y-town is not a huge city with rings of suburbs.
Youngstown has the same development patterns as many other cities. It's just smaller, so the rings are harder to define, because they happen within the same municipality/township.

Quote:
This is clearly not a rural area; I don't see how extending the gas lines to this portion of the county will "encourage sprawl".
I hope you're right, and that area will remain mostly a collection of large-lot SFHs and farms.
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:34 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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My parent's large lot suburb has no gas lines, didn't prevent development.

Incidentally, some have torn down their old homes for new ones, they don't mind having the most expensive homes in the neighborhood, they prefer to stay and custom-build. Of course, it's a very different situation from a neighborhood with decaying homes. The land is worth a lot.
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
4,896 posts, read 7,657,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
Not even clear what the definition of "sprawl" would be. Seems to me at best this would just be a growing area surrounded by dying, decaying city. To the extent any growth would result, the growing area would be populated by people that don't want to live wherever JR_C is. I would think a dying city would be interested in encouraging growth anywhere it might appear or be cultivated. In any event, JR_C's comment is simply an expression of irrational speculation and fear. The folks in the article just want natural gas like most of the other citizens of the area have. JR_C is free to lobby his local councilmember (or whatever they are called up there) to oppose a gas line to another area to the extent the city would have anything to do with it. I suspect his representative would take the opposition with a grain of salt considering how such a gas line would benefit all the property owner/voters in the underserved area and isn't really going to negatively impact JR_C anywhere except in his imagination.
All municipalities are interested in encouraging growth. The municipalities surrounding Youngstown are interested in their own growth, even when it's at the expense of the core city.
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