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Old 09-18-2014, 08:29 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
Post 1950's during white flight, malls and highways were conveniences that made for an easier life outside of the city, and incentivized the evacuation of core cities even further. The concept of suburbs have been around for a while. The American suburbs as we know them rose to prominence from the 1950s-1990s Minervahs comment makes sense.
This "white flight" notion is quite the hyperbole. Here's a thread from a year ago. Sorry nei, but it has relevance here. "Evacuation" is another piece of hyperbole.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Kinda like the one couple in the news video who was moving from one suburb to another. Moving to a brand new suburban housing development, too, no less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
And "fleeing" just sounds so much more pathetic than say, "saying farewell".
LMAO -- I have a vision of people running down the streets, suitcases in hand, while their suburban homes fold in on themselves.


Young adults have always wanted to live in the city. Perhaps you weren't clued into the last lines of the news report you posted, where the reporter quoted "experts" who suggested the uptick in urban living may be tied to declining birth and marriage rates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Thought that was an amusing image, too.
The malls followed the people, not vice versa. There were few malls before 1970.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:46 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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How is white flight hyperbole? There were many urban neighborhoods that flipped from mostly white to mostly non-white (as in from >80% to <20%) in a generation or less. That doesn't mean white flight was the sole or even biggest reason, but it was still real.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
How could highways and shopping malls be the main reasons for suburbanization when they weren't really factors until after World War 2, and (as I noted upthread) by any reasonable standards suburbanization started in the mid-19th century, and automotive suburbs were being established by 1920?
As I mentioned earlier most people can't own houses before the 1950ies due to the way mortgagees worked back then. The burbs pre 1950 were for the well off. Post 1950 for the middle class and Riverside is an bit upscale.
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
How could highways and shopping malls be the main reasons for suburbanization when they weren't really factors until after World War 2, and (as I noted upthread) by any reasonable standards suburbanization started in the mid-19th century, and automotive suburbs were being established by 1920?

It was the 1950's when the biggest migration to the 'burbs began after WWII because that's when more people had the means, highways and automobiles to move to them. I think that's what most people are referring to on this thread as well. That's when suburbanization truly began.

Here is an article on the subject from the Encyclopedia.com on the suburbanization of America. Note the first paragraph I have quoted here that states the trend "began only briefly in the nineteenth century."

SUBURBANIZATION describes the general trend of city dwellers to move from the city into residential areas in ever-growing concentric circles away from the city's core. The trend began briefly in the nineteenth century and then exploded after World War II (19391945).


http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Suburbanization.aspx
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:41 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,030 posts, read 102,707,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
How is white flight hyperbole? There were many urban neighborhoods that flipped from mostly white to mostly non-white (as in from >80% to <20%) in a generation or less. That doesn't mean white flight was the sole or even biggest reason, but it was still real.
People were not "fleeing". White flight was a term cooked up by the social media of the day. Those people were branded as racists, unfairly IMO. People who could afford so went to live in the burbs.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-18-2014 at 10:59 PM..
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
People were not "fleeing". White flight was a term cooked up by the social media of the day. Those people were branded as racists, unfairly IMO. People who could afford so went to live in the burbs.
While they were not all racist, race was an huge factor. Whole city neighborhoods changed over the moment an black bought an house on the block. There are stories of real estate agents paying black kids to ride bikes around some areas to spook up sales.
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Old 09-19-2014, 06:18 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
People were not "fleeing". White flight was a term cooked up by the social media of the day. Those people were branded as racists, unfairly IMO. People who could afford so went to live in the burbs.
I don't think that explain neighborhoods that flipped in race within a generation. Usually, many older homeowners would rather stay.

You can find "white flight" in academic literature. Whether they were branded as racists unfairly is irrelevant, in any case, I'm not criticizing those who left for white flight as racists, in the end it would have been a poor choice to stay in many cases. As to the bolded, I know that the white flight neighborhoods (very quick chances in racial composition) tended to be the poorer ones in NYC, many who couldn't afford it. Many weren't moving to suburbs but other city neighborhoods. Perhaps they were the less desirable neighborhoods, but you can find similar neighborhoods where one had a drastic change in white population in a short time.

I'm not sure how else you can explain the extreme patterns of residential segregation. Here's a map of Chicago in 1970:



How would this pattern be created without white flight? If there was a general pattern of moving out to the suburbs, you'd see a much more scattered black population, some variation but not places either almost all or almost none. Instead, one obvious trend is whites moved out where there was some black population and then soon changed to nearly all black. White flight seems like the simplest explanation.
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Old 09-19-2014, 06:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
No, they didn't. While early U.S. streetcar suburbs don't look very "suburban" today, there are plenty of examples of early automotive suburbs which look pretty clearly suburban. For example, look at Riverside, IL. The land was plotted in the late 1860s, with major spurts of building in the 1870s, 1890s, and the 1920s-1930s. All the characteristics of what we would come to call a suburb are already there.
Right but even while outlying communities were starting to pop up, cities didn't start showing wide spread decline until the 1960 census. The strip mall, cookie cutter commuter burbs came full circle 60's 70's 80's. The early "suburbs" had different meanings.
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Old 09-19-2014, 06:37 AM
 
3,967 posts, read 3,502,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
This "white flight" notion is quite the hyperbole. Here's a thread from a year ago. Sorry nei, but it has relevance here. "Evacuation" is another piece of hyperbole.
Quote:


By White Flight I was referring to the Decentralization of core cities. However there were examples where White Flight was absolutely happening. Biggest one being Detroit.
The malls followed the people, not vice versa. There were few malls before 1970.
I'm actually kind of a mall Nerd, most of the Malls that were/ or still are major players even in Midsized cities were built in the mid to late 60s. The trend of malls started going viral (forgive the expression) after the success of the malls built in the 50s.
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Old 09-19-2014, 07:10 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,030 posts, read 102,707,476 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I don't think that explain neighborhoods that flipped in race within a generation. Usually, many older homeowners would rather stay.

You can find "white flight" in academic literature. Whether they were branded as racists unfairly is irrelevant, in any case, I'm not criticizing those who left for white flight as racists, in the end it would have been a poor choice to stay in many cases. As to the bolded, I know that the white flight neighborhoods (very quick chances in racial composition) tended to be the poorer ones in NYC, many who couldn't afford it. Many weren't moving to suburbs but other city neighborhoods. Perhaps they were the less desirable neighborhoods, but you can find similar neighborhoods where one had a drastic change in white population in a short time.

I'm not sure how else you can explain the extreme patterns of residential segregation. Here's a map of Chicago in 1970:



How would this pattern be created without white flight? If there was a general pattern of moving out to the suburbs, you'd see a much more scattered black population, some variation but not places either almost all or almost none. Instead, one obvious trend is whites moved out where there was some black population and then soon changed to nearly all black. White flight seems like the simplest explanation.
A generation is 30 years. Any neighborhood can change in that length of time. 30+ years ago, when we moved to Denver, our neighborhood was considered semi-slummy. Now it's hip.

Chicago has a long history of racism. I can't explain it, have never studied it.
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