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Old 10-01-2014, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
I argue that gentrification is normal, but only becomes apparent and problematic when local and/or regional supplies and demands diverge. When new supply is limited--by geography, but more likely by policy choices--and a richer subset of the population is growing in quantity, we are going to see the poor/er displaced by the wealthy/ier. When the wealth gap is large enough (or, media-worthy enough) then that displacement becomes the big, bad bogeyman of gentrification.
"Normal" makes it seems like it's constantly been happening throughout the 20th Century. This period is really abnormal because we've probably never seen a time where such large geographic swaths of inner cities were nearly the exclusive province of a largely childless, wealthy and transient population.

Fair? I guess you could say that. Whoever pays the most "wins" and whoever can't loses. The rules of the game were there to see so nobody can really complain about that...I guess. Normal? Not so sure about that.
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Old 10-01-2014, 04:53 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
"Normal" makes it seems like it's constantly been happening throughout the 20th Century. This period is really abnormal because we've probably never seen a time where such large geographic swaths of inner cities were nearly the exclusive province of a largely childless, wealthy and transient population.
And in prior decades (and really still, today in many cities) large swaths of inner cities were becoming poverty zones. Inner cities are still poorer relative to the national average compared to before say 1960. The poverty zone pattern is also not normal, either.

Xenocrypt's Site.: County-Level Poverty Rates in the 1959 United States
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Old 10-01-2014, 05:51 PM
 
33,046 posts, read 22,062,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Not necessarily. In Oakland, you may have more homeowners, so it likely seems that way to you. But in cities like NYC with a higher proportion of renters, a lot of the current residents don't want out, but don't have much of a choice.

I think gentrification is a weird thing. As a homeowner, part of me wants all of the poor people to get kicked out because, frankly, they are keeping down my property value. The more artisinal lemonade shops and Yupsters, the better. At the same time, I feel kinda weird because there's this sort of tacit recognition among neighbors that we've engaged in a collective business endeavor. It seems like everyone is more concerned about what they want the neighborhood to eventually become rather than what it already is. I always thought the whole point of moving into a neighborhood was that you liked the neighbors...not quietly hoping they'll one day be swept away by the forces of the free market.

??? How so? I'm a poor person, drug-free, crime-free, and child-free - nobody has ever suggested that I keep down their property value. You must be conflating the educated poor with the uneducated poor.
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Old 10-01-2014, 06:12 PM
 
33,046 posts, read 22,062,610 times
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Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Why are you making assumptions? Why does that homeowner income have to mean consumption? Maybe they invest it? Or save it?

In any case, how is consumption relevant to anything?

SOME homeowners will save a large proportion of their income; MOST will consume a large proportion of their income.

We know this because we have all sorts of data, including net worth of homeowners. IF homeowners consumed only as much as do renters, homeowner savings and investment would be much greater than it is, hence the average homeowner would be nearly a millionaire. (Note also that the average homeowner is considerably older than the average renter, thus boosting homeowner potential for compounded growth.)
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Old 10-02-2014, 06:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? How so? I'm a poor person, drug-free, crime-free, and child-free - nobody has ever suggested that I keep down their property value. You must be conflating the educated poor with the uneducated poor.
No, but what you've been harping on for years (cramming houses into tiny lots until the neighborhood becomes a slum) will keep down property value.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
No, but what you've been harping on for years (cramming houses into tiny lots until the neighborhood becomes a slum) will keep down property value.

That should be up to the private sector, not to government. Again, the educated poor do not create slums. Manhattan has densities beyond your greatest tolerance, is the Upper East Side a slum?
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:54 AM
 
15,734 posts, read 9,253,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
That should be up to the private sector, not to government. Again, the educated poor do not create slums. Manhattan has densities beyond your greatest tolerance, is the Upper East Side a slum?
There's no such thing as "educated poor". If you are poor, in spite of being given great opportunities to advance your income, you might have an education, but you haven't been "educated" in what matters.

Funny, you use Manhattan as your example, but there are MANY areas of Manhattan that might be considered slums. Far more than the Upper East Side, in percentage.
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
And in prior decades (and really still, today in many cities) large swaths of inner cities were becoming poverty zones.
Large swaths of inner cities, in particular New York City, were poverty zones from the mid 19th Century until the 1930s. Poverty in New York, and probably many other cities as well, has been more the rule than the exception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Inner cities are still poorer relative to the national average compared to before say 1960. The poverty zone pattern is also not normal, either.
Since poverty thresholds weren't developed until the 1960s, how do you think the LES, Hell's Kitchen, Harlem, the Bowery, etc. would have fared in the early 20th Century by today's poverty standards?

When people talk about this "Great Decline," at least in New York, it seems they're mostly referring to a relatively brief period during the late 1930s through 50s when immigrants and the children of immigrants were able to move out of squalor into the working-class (and some of them eventually moved out of the working class into middle class suburbs). That's the Golden Age of the City, I suppose, where kids hopped on streetcars to go see movies for a quarter or something like that. If anything, that seems to be a deviation from the norm, as much of the city was a pretty horrid place before that.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/200...W_index-5.html
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? How so? I'm a poor person, drug-free, crime-free, and child-free - nobody has ever suggested that I keep down their property value. You must be conflating the educated poor with the uneducated poor.
That distinction doesn't matter. People with money is what causes property values to skyrocket.
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:17 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,979,923 times
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So do white, out of college (or if not, grew up in a middle class area) with a low income overcrowding a Bed-Stuy apartment count for increasing property values? Or lowering nearby property values? They're not really the type of "poor" that create QOL of life issues, or assumed to (partially accurate, partially from stereotypes).
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