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Old 09-20-2014, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
It'd be a long trip from Sacto to SJ or SF, given the circuitous route south to Pacheco Pass and then northward again. That said, I agree with the general point that HSR will open the central valley to new commute possibilities. Some--I imagine individuals with household incomes between $40k and $70k, ie middle class--might not mind spending an hour on a train each way in exchange for significantly cheaper housing.

Now, I know it's an aside from the OP, but do I think it's a good idea to create a subsidy, which, because I'm cynical, I assume will lead to new low-density, auto-oriented (ie, unfriendly to pedestrian) exurban development?

No. I think that's going to create a lot of debtor cities in the long run--higher ongoing, long-term infrastructure and city-services costs than there are tax receipts from residents--while making some property developers very rich in the short run.

One problem with the biggest projects--BART, HSR, etc--is they don't include much, if anything, to support, incentivize, or require smart infrastructure along or around the project. Cities are left to make these decisions themselves. But, politicians are inclined to make short-term feel-good decisions, like building lots of big, comfy, widely-spaced McMansions and getting schools and libraries built.

For HSR, such exurban development would be self-defeating long term, as upper-middle income families may price out lower-middle income families except at driving distances to stations. 20 minute drive to the station, then hour on the train, then a shuttle to work. Seems like a fundamental flaw to me.
Good points. Probably some of the more solid arguments against the HSR.
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Old 09-20-2014, 06:54 PM
 
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Right now even the Japanese say cost wise the line they planned from Balitmore to Washington is no long feasible.That was the one their studies showed was most suitable and they were going to build.
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Old 09-20-2014, 08:00 PM
 
9,860 posts, read 10,113,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
Everyone assumes business and leisure travelers along with rail fans. But I suspect many commuters.
Certainly commuters. About 60-70 buses in my area commute 100-120 minutes to NYC per day for commuters.
These times on HSR are much less, and considerably more comfortable.

FLORENCE 70 minutes to Rome
CIUDAD REAL 50 minutes Madrid
PUERTOLLANO 66 minutes Madrid


In the 1950's people thought the interstates were going to be mostly for intercity traffic, but they are increasingly used by commuters.
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Old 09-20-2014, 08:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdscott View Post
The transit organizations are starting to getting into private development (like MARTA) and that might help.

Good post.
In Tokyo the owners of the commuter trains are massive corporations involved in hotels, ballparks, shopping centers, etc., all built along the linear community that is their train track.
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Old 09-20-2014, 08:11 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
Certainly commuters. About 60-70 buses in my area commute 100-120 minutes to NYC per day for commuters.
These times on HSR are much less, and considerably more comfortable.

FLORENCE 70 minutes to Rome
CIUDAD REAL 50 minutes Madrid
PUERTOLLANO 66 minutes Madrid
But what are the fares?
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Old 09-21-2014, 07:30 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,954,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
But what are the fares?
51.95 for Madrid/Ciudad Real on RENFE

$1000 a month is a lot for commuting. Not sure if they have discounts for a monthly pass . . . although I know that people pay that much for monthly passes on Amtrak.
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Old 09-21-2014, 07:56 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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€27.10 for Madrid/Ciudad Real on RENFE each way if you book ahead, presumably there's a way for a commuter to at least get that rate.

TGV has 50% off for a monthly, not sure off of what rate or whether it's all trains.
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Old 09-21-2014, 06:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
51.95 for Madrid/Ciudad Real on RENFE

$1000 a month is a lot for commuting. Not sure if they have discounts for a monthly pass . . . although I know that people pay that much for monthly passes on Amtrak.
That's 205 km (128 mi). Probably discounts available. If housing costs are cheaper, maybe a viable option.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:02 PM
46H
 
965 posts, read 585,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
Certainly commuters. About 60-70 buses in my area commute 100-120 minutes to NYC per day for commuters.
These times on HSR are much less, and considerably more comfortable.

FLORENCE 70 minutes to Rome
CIUDAD REAL 50 minutes Madrid
PUERTOLLANO 66 minutes Madrid


In the 1950's people thought the interstates were going to be mostly for intercity traffic, but they are increasingly used by commuters.
There are probably zero right of ways for HSR in the NY Metro area for the buses you are talking about. Many of these buses cover areas with weak or no train service. How are you going to get ROWs thru dense suburban towns?

If there are any right of ways, the locals nimbys will eliminate them anyway.
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Old 09-23-2014, 11:00 AM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,004,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
That's 205 km (128 mi). Probably discounts available. If housing costs are cheaper, maybe a viable option.
Agreed. In the SF area, halving (no exaggeration) the cost of housing by using HSR from super-exurbs would be enough to justify such prices.
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