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Old 09-14-2014, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Only about 25% of households these days have kids. Try again.

If 25% of the households make 25% of trips with an average of two kids in the car how doesn't that push the average up from is "cars only have one people in them on average" that some people think is reasonable?
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Old 09-14-2014, 02:31 AM
 
1,293 posts, read 949,089 times
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That's simply because there are plenty of smart people in these cities, and they know if they want to be on time it's better to take a subway and read a book instead of sitting in a car on a congested street doing nothing but listening to some music, the same as yesterday. So these people kinda vote for PT by using it. They also don't like parking fees. And they are usually, on average, better fit and less obese because walking to/from a bus station is an exercise. So they combine several benefits in one solution.
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Old 09-14-2014, 08:28 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,010 posts, read 102,606,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Only about 25% of households these days have kids. Try again.
Actually it's 43% of households with children. You're thinking of two married parents plus children.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...75097201,d.aWw
A mom with two kids in the car is an occupancy rate of 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BusyMeAK View Post
That's simply because there are plenty of smart people in these cities, and they know if they want to be on time it's better to take a subway and read a book instead of sitting in a car on a congested street doing nothing but listening to some music, the same as yesterday. So these people kinda vote for PT by using it. They also don't like parking fees. And they are usually, on average, better fit and less obese because walking to/from a bus station is an exercise. So they combine several benefits in one solution.
No, no, no and no! That is not borne out with the statistics. We've talked about this before. If you're interested, do a search. I suggest "obesity" as a search term.

But, to get back on topic (sort of), buses, streetcars, etc used to be privately run. To take a non-conspiracy viewpoint, as ridership declined with the advent of the auto, these companies started going out of business. Cities saw PT as a resource they didn't want to let die, so they took them over with tax money. As pointed out either on this thread or another about PT, most of these transit agencies are metro-wide.
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Old 09-14-2014, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
6,383 posts, read 6,005,983 times
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Originally Posted by MerriMAC View Post
What incentive is there for cities to provide public transit (bus routes, etc)? Seems like local government officials could just tell the people without vehicles to take a private taxi instead. Is public transit a form of welfare?
It is not a form of public welfare. Plus what about those people that do not want to pay $3 a mile for a taxi?
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Old 09-14-2014, 09:53 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,979,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
But, to get back on topic (sort of), buses, streetcars, etc used to be privately run. To take a non-conspiracy viewpoint, as ridership declined with the advent of the auto, these companies started going out of business. Cities saw PT as a resource they didn't want to let die, so they took them over with tax money. As pointed out either on this thread or another about PT, most of these transit agencies are metro-wide.
Some of the public transit government takeovers occurred before ridership declined. The NYC subway was taken over in 1940, slightly before the peak ridership (late 1940s). If any transit wasn't going at a loss, the NYC subway would be one of them. The city took it over as it was thought it was a public good that shouldn't be left to private business. As soon it became government, there was political pressure to keep the fares low, so a subsidy was inevitable. San Francisco formed MUNI in 1912.
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:10 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,010 posts, read 102,606,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Some of the public transit government takeovers occurred before ridership declined. The NYC subway was taken over in 1940, slightly before the peak ridership (late 1940s). If any transit wasn't going at a loss, the NYC subway would be one of them. The city took it over as it was thought it was a public good that shouldn't be left to private business. As soon it became government, there was political pressure to keep the fares low, so a subsidy was inevitable. San Francisco formed MUNI in 1912.
Interesting. I left subways out b/c I wasn't sure of the structure. But yeah, there are many good reasons for a city/metro to provide transit-ease congestion, traffic abatement, provide transportation to some areas that might not be served in a private system that has to worry all the time about the bottom line.
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Old 09-14-2014, 12:31 PM
 
1,478 posts, read 2,002,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Yea, as long as you lock your car doors you should be fine in all but the most pathologically violent American neighborhoods. Being on a bus or subway car, you're trapped with whatever weirdo might be there with you. Chances are low even in bad neighborhoods, but crime risk is still higher than being in a car.
Crime risk is higher in the bus than a car, but your overall physical safety is probably better in that bus. Your odds of being significantly injured in a car accident through fault of your own or because some knucklehead pulled out in front of you is pretty significant. Probably more significant than crime on a bus or something hitting a bus hard enough to hurt you.
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Old 09-14-2014, 03:39 PM
 
3,269 posts, read 3,005,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Some of the public transit government takeovers occurred before ridership declined. The NYC subway was taken over in 1940, slightly before the peak ridership (late 1940s). If any transit wasn't going at a loss, the NYC subway would be one of them. The city took it over as it was thought it was a public good that shouldn't be left to private business. As soon it became government, there was political pressure to keep the fares low, so a subsidy was inevitable. San Francisco formed MUNI in 1912.
One of the interesting things about the NYC subway system is that despite the massive amount of pseudo-corruption engaged in by the MTA, its employees, and its contractors that the subways are so heavily utilized that the fares come relatively close to covering operating costs. Not quite, but not that far either. The bus system on the other hand doesn't get that kind of intense use and is substantially subsidized (tickets under half the operating costs if I remember correctly) by the bridge tolls which way outstrip costs.

Last edited by ALackOfCreativity; 09-14-2014 at 04:41 PM..
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Old 09-14-2014, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,762,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago76 View Post
Crime risk is higher in the bus than a car, but your overall physical safety is probably better in that bus. Your odds of being significantly injured in a car accident through fault of your own or because some knucklehead pulled out in front of you is pretty significant. Probably more significant than crime on a bus or something hitting a bus hard enough to hurt you.
As long as you don't get hit by a car on your way to the bus stop. That's a relatively serious issue at "stroad" intersections in Toronto with pedestrians using these intersections having a significantly higher chance of getting injured.

BTW the stats suggest the TTC has about 70 boardings per revenue hour for surface transit. Even excluding streetcars it's 67 boardings/revenue hour, so in Toronto it seems fairly clear that buses average at over 8-9 passengers (unless the average bus trip is just 8 minutes, which I highly doubt).

I think most here understand that urban land use patterns and transit go together though and that in most of the US they aren't very conducive to transit.
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Old 09-14-2014, 05:43 PM
 
483 posts, read 534,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerriMAC View Post
What incentive is there for cities to provide public transit (bus routes, etc)? Seems like local government officials could just tell the people without vehicles to take a private taxi instead. Is public transit a form of welfare?
Yeah, what we want is an ever increasing amount of smog.
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