U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 09-23-2014, 12:05 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,929,314 times
Reputation: 14804

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Maybe things are quite different out west, but this wasn't my college experience at all.

I went to school in a college town in Western Massachusetts near where Nei lived from 1997-2001. Most students knew how to drive, but many seldom did. Undergraduates typically were relegated to "Yellow" lots for their first two years of school, which were often a 15-minute walk from dorms. As a result few people used their cars at all except for weekend trips, and quite a lot left their cars at their parents houses. I stayed in the dorms all the way through my senior year, and even then I'd say around half of people appeared not to drive with any regularity. Although most off-campus people did own cars, if the local situation were such that cars were as much of a hassle as on campus (e.g., if it was an urban area, not a town) I'd guess many would have made the same calculation.
Not an undergrad at the school you're referring so I could be wrong, but I found that actually has slightly more college students with cars than where I went to school (maybe about the half the off-campus students had cars, and on-campus less). However, while every student having a car sounds very high to me, if you have former houses turned to rentals what did house a family with two cars might house four college students with two cars. Denser than single family and you get an overflow, add enough bigger apartment building with limited parking and the street parking is nearly filled. However, I don't consider that a problem. Especially since college students don't really need a car, at least in the denser student areas where land is at premium, any available space should not required to be use for parking when it limited the abilty to create more housing units.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-23-2014, 01:11 PM
 
9,647 posts, read 4,548,107 times
Reputation: 12515
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
I was going to ask the same question. It's silly to suggest there are alternatives, then fail to offer any. "Clutter"--on-street parking, bulb-outs, neck-downs, narrow lanes, roundabouts, etc.--creates an experience drivers have to be somewhat engaged to navigate, and are vital to safe streets.
You just named a bunch, not to mention a lower speed limit sign and a cop with a radar gun.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 01:55 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,985 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
If your hope is to increase development in dense, urban areas (or even as many units as possible), you won't support things that make it harder for developers. There are limits, but I'm not that bothered streets packed with cars, and eschaton chooses to live on one.



Yes, but the other study at the same time said severe injuries, which a head injury would count in, would be lessened.



Huh?
The very last people I am concerned about in life, other than Wall St. financiers, are developers. You and eschaton are two people.

It is not certain that severe injuries would be lessened. I was brain-dead last night and didn't read that study, and when I went to read it now, found I have to have some log-in. Since I'm not affiliated with any of those colleges, I can't read any more than the abstract. But even last night, with my almost flat EEG, I noticed it was written by an urban planner and a civil engineer. Now I don't want to offend anyone here, but I don't get my injuries assessed by urban planners and/or engineers. In fact, being related to a whole slew of engineers, I would most certainly not go to them for health care advice. Even those with advanced degrees can't understand some of the simplest things about health care. I would imagine urban planners are in a similar category.

As to the Huh? comment, it has been said that city requirements for off street parking are overblown and not research based. Yet, then eschaton said there are a lot of studies done by cities and non-profits which could give an idea of how many parking spaces are needed! That seems quite contradictory. And my opinion of non-profits is not uniformly high. There are as many sleazy non-profits as there are for-profits (the NFL as a prime example). But that's the subject for a different thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Didn't you say they had off-street parling before?
Yes, they did have off-street both in Aurora and Boulder. But they also drove around those two cities. The part of Aurora where my daughter lived can best be described as "ghetto".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stateofnature View Post
I find this argument that "it is better to reduce accidents entirely" very unpersuasive, to the point where I don't think the people making it have really thought through the implications. Most accidents don't result in injury. They result in damage to cars. Of those that do result in injuries, many of those injuries are minor and don't require hospitalization. Others are more serious like whiplash, but still not nearly as bad as they could be. It's a subset of a subset of accidents--the most severe accidents--that lead to the worst injuries and deaths.
Those are the accidents we should worry about if we prioritize human life and reducing human misery over avoiding automobile damage. I would gladly accept 10 minor accidents if it meant getting rid of one severe accident.

I don't think the one study is enough to reach broad conclusions that on-street parking saves lives versus off-street parking. Yes, I agree more replications should be done, and I'd love to see more research on the topic. From what I've found, academics tend to consider it an under-researched issue. But with the data I've seen so far, there seems like at least a good chance that street parking might save lives in certain areas. That's enough for me to say we shouldn't go in with the presumption that on-street parking is worse and we certainly shouldn't say it should be banned, which was the argument from another poster that kicked off this whole discussion.
See my previous comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
I think there are much more reasonable and practical ways of lowering speeds than cluttering the sides of the road with parked cars.
Agreed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,504,059 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Yes. I sure as heck wasn't driving when I was 11 and "allowed" to go downtown with friends. When I learned to drive, my family only had one car and my dad took it to work. Later, we got another car, to be shared by my mom, brother and I.
Now I am confused, where you walking in the street or on the sidewalk whwn you were 11 downtown? If it was the sidewalk, having parked cars next to the sidewalk is much safer than having moving cars next to the sidewalk.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 02:04 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,985 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by stateofnature View Post
Such as? Street parking also has the added benefit of giving more places to park so you have to factor that in as well.

Potholes and gravel roads obviously lead to other problems with car maintenance that street parking doesn't, so they're not analogous.
Speed bumps, rotaries, planters in the middle of roads, I've seen all that.

I'm not really opposed to street parking per se, I think apartments should have to provide off street parking. In fact, I think all homes should have off street parking.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 02:06 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,985 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Now I am confused, where you walking in the street or on the sidewalk whwn you were 11 downtown? If it was the sidewalk, having parked cars next to the sidewalk is much safer than having moving cars next to the sidewalk.
Oh, come on! You know exactly what I'm talking about. And no one has proven that having parked cars next to the sidewalk is "much safer". In fact, one person said there are MORE injuries, just supposedly, from the POV of a couple of urban planners and a civil engineer, fewer "serious" injuries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 02:06 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,929,314 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Now I am confused, where you walking in the street or on the sidewalk whwn you were 11 downtown? If it was the sidewalk, having parked cars next to the sidewalk is much safer than having moving cars next to the sidewalk.
I rather doubt she was walking in the sidewalk, that seems like a silly question. I might agree with that assertion, but if you look back at her posts she doesn't.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Oak Park, IL
5,522 posts, read 12,283,883 times
Reputation: 3827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Speed bumps, rotaries, planters in the middle of roads, I've seen all that.

I'm not really opposed to street parking per se, I think apartments should have to provide off street parking.
Even in midtown Manhattan? Should it be a requirement of one parking spot for every apartment unit?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 02:07 PM
 
229 posts, read 248,367 times
Reputation: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The point needs to be made that while Houston is often called a "city without zoning" it actually only lacks zoning which separates uses (apartments, single-family housing, industry, retail, etc). It still has some of the most damaging parts of zoning if you care about dense urban development - parking minimums and minimum setbacks.
The point is that Houston's urban problems are due to not having enough regulations rather than having too much. Surely a developer has 100x more freedom in Houston than in NYC. One of these cities is better planned than the other.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-23-2014, 02:08 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,929,314 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm not really opposed to street parking per se, I think apartments should have to provide off street parking. In fact, I think all homes should have off street parking.
All? In the middle of a dense urban area where many don't drive there's not much space? In a rowhouse neighborhood where off street parking never existed? These threads become an all or nothing where all nuance is lost. Almost no one answered the OP the more sensible "it depends".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top