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Old 10-09-2014, 08:38 PM
 
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Several of the northeastern cities also cannot annex land -- Washington D.C, Baltimore, and Philadelphia, for instance. But it seems as long as a large city is around, it's going to prevent the rise of another major city within its footprint. The original will be central, the others lesser.
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Old 10-10-2014, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
There is one example of what you cited which has already happened however - the Tidewater area of Virginia. Virginia Beach started out more or less as a suburb of Norfolk, and is now over twice the size of Norfolk in terms of population. Admittedly this is mostly due to larger landmass - Norfolk at least has some old urban neighborhoods, and I don't think there's anything in Virginia Beach even resembling a CBD. But it still has outgrown the original core city.
Actually Virginia Beach was a resort town on the coast in Princess Anne County, VA. Norfolk was planning it's next major land grab which was to take all of Princess Anne County. Virginia Beach convinced the county to merge with her as a city creating what we know now. Subsequently South Norfolk merged with Norfolk County to become Chesapeake to keep the City of Norfolk from grabbing it and Suffolk merged with Nansmand County to become the City of Suffolk to prevent Portsmouth from expanding. Over the year Va Beach has seen significant growth heavily fueled by white flight out of Norfolk and Portsmouth as well as her own businesses and industries and the military bases.
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
Actually Virginia Beach was a resort town on the coast in Princess Anne County, VA. Norfolk was planning it's next major land grab which was to take all of Princess Anne County. Virginia Beach convinced the county to merge with her as a city creating what we know now. Subsequently South Norfolk merged with Norfolk County to become Chesapeake to keep the City of Norfolk from grabbing it and Suffolk merged with Nansmand County to become the City of Suffolk to prevent Portsmouth from expanding. Over the year Va Beach has seen significant growth heavily fueled by white flight out of Norfolk and Portsmouth as well as her own businesses and industries and the military bases.
I was aware of this history.

While Virginia Beach might not have been a true suburb in its earliest history, it was becoming a suburb of Norfolk. And the actions that Virginia Beach and the other surrounding small cities did - forming an "iron ring" to stop the traditional cities from expanding - are pretty classic suburban stories which happened all over the Northeast, Midwest, and in a few other places in the South (notably Atlanta, at least to the North).
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The Hell! An amendment to the Colorado constitution in 1974 makes it very difficult for Denver to annex land. [vimeo]15788368[/vimeo]
[vimeo]15788368[/vimeo]
http://vimeo.com/15788368; Poundstone Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Denver was pretty aggressive with annexations up to that point. It still annexed 27,000 acres in 1988 for the new airport. Denver is pretty much landlocked but did gerrymander its boundaries to take in that huge chunk. Not from the area to know such stuff off hand, but Google is an amazing tool.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=http:...nnexations.kmz

The point I was making is that most southern and western cities have taken in large chunks of land compared to midwestern and northern cities. The same rules that allow them to expand has given their suburbs the right to expand as well. So you still don't see suburbs outgrowing central cities for the most part. The Norfolk area is one of the exceptions and it took county consolidations to carry that out.

Laws do change over time. Georgia law has given counties stronger powers over municipalities when comared to many other states. Whereas Atlanta is not that much smaller metro wise than Dallas (and larger than Denver and Phoenix) it does not have the massive suburbs that those cities have. Neither is the central city as large. A metro area in the top ten nationally but the central city is down around 40 on the list of cities. However, the last ten years have seen some relaxing on those laws allowing several of the Atlanta suburbs to incorporate and become cities on their own. Sandy Springs, Johns Creek, Milton, Dunwoody, Brookhaven and Peachtree Corners have all come into being in the last 10 years. Sandy Springs is now the largest suburb and is approaching 100k in population, but still less than a fourth of the central city.

Compare to the Dallas area. Take Fort Worth out of the mix and you have two metro areas that mirror each other in most aspects. Whereas Atlanta doesn't have a single suburb over 100k, DFW was Arlington over 300k, Plano, Irving and Garland over 200k and Grand Prairies, Mesquite, Richardson, Carrollton, Frisco, McKinney, Lewisville and Denton over 100k (I think I got them all). Different politics here, counties don't do municipal services, if an area develops and wants water, sewer, police, sidewalks, etc, etc, it must be in a city. In Georgia, the suburban Atlanta counties provide these services and keep the suburbs at bay. In many cases, the Atlanta suburbs still have the tiny city limits they have when they original incorporated in the 1800s.

So while there is a law on the books limiting Denver now, it was given an exception for a large annexation after it came on the books and as Georgia law changed last decade, the same thing could happen there.

All of this is really beside the point, but when I am told 'the Hell' something in me rises up to counter.
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I was aware of this history.

While Virginia Beach might not have been a true suburb in its earliest history, it was becoming a suburb of Norfolk. And the actions that Virginia Beach and the other surrounding small cities did - forming an "iron ring" to stop the traditional cities from expanding - are pretty classic suburban stories which happened all over the Northeast, Midwest, and in a few other places in the South (notably Atlanta, at least to the North).
Norfolk had enough expansion and there is no justification for more acreage to be under her control. On the same note Richmond has been stopped from expanding, as a city she is incapable of managing her infrastructure or institutions. Continued expansion of Richmond would just drag down the areas she would have annexed instead the incorporated counties around her are booming due to clean government and proper management.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
Norfolk had enough expansion and there is no justification for more acreage to be under her control. On the same note Richmond has been stopped from expanding, as a city she is incapable of managing her infrastructure or institutions. Continued expansion of Richmond would just drag down the areas she would have annexed instead the incorporated counties around her are booming due to clean government and proper management.
Again, I'm not saying that you're right or wrong. I am saying that this is the classic suburban argument - that you don't want to be part of the core city because it's mismanaged/corrupt/high crime - and that you incorporate in such a way to preclude any annexation from taking place.

Personally, if I were in the Hampton Roads area, I would be advocating for Norfolk, Portsmouth, Newport News, and Hampton at minimum to amalgamate together into one city - maybe with a "borough" structure similar to NYC. But that's just me.
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Again, I'm not saying that you're right or wrong. I am saying that this is the classic suburban argument - that you don't want to be part of the core city because it's mismanaged/corrupt/high crime - and that you incorporate in such a way to preclude any annexation from taking place.

Personally, if I were in the Hampton Roads area, I would be advocating for Norfolk, Portsmouth, Newport News, and Hampton at minimum to amalgamate together into one city - maybe with a "borough" structure similar to NYC. But that's just me.
As a longtime suburban dweller I don't want my community ruined by being incorporated as part of Richmond. I have lived all over in both city & burb and Richmond is the most corrupt, inept governing body I have ever encountered. Common sense dictates that throwing in with that bunch would only diminish the quality of life. This isn't a city/burb argument this is a matter of efficient government or the lack there of. As for precluding any annexation the city has demonstrated it's inability to manage what they have now, giving them more won't solve the problem.

As for Hampton Roads good luck bring that bunch together....
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Old 10-10-2014, 05:39 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,978 posts, read 102,527,356 times
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Denver was pretty aggressive with annexations up to that point. It still annexed 27,000 acres in 1988 for the new airport. Denver is pretty much landlocked but did gerrymander its boundaries to take in that huge chunk. Not from the area to know such stuff off hand, but Google is an amazing tool.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=http:...nnexations.kmz

The point I was making is that most southern and western cities have taken in large chunks of land compared to midwestern and northern cities. The same rules that allow them to expand has given their suburbs the right to expand as well. So you still don't see suburbs outgrowing central cities for the most part. The Norfolk area is one of the exceptions and it took county consolidations to carry that out.

Laws do change over time. Georgia law has given counties stronger powers over municipalities when comared to many other states. Whereas Atlanta is not that much smaller metro wise than Dallas (and larger than Denver and Phoenix) it does not have the massive suburbs that those cities have. Neither is the central city as large. A metro area in the top ten nationally but the central city is down around 40 on the list of cities. However, the last ten years have seen some relaxing on those laws allowing several of the Atlanta suburbs to incorporate and become cities on their own. Sandy Springs, Johns Creek, Milton, Dunwoody, Brookhaven and Peachtree Corners have all come into being in the last 10 years. Sandy Springs is now the largest suburb and is approaching 100k in population, but still less than a fourth of the central city.

Compare to the Dallas area. Take Fort Worth out of the mix and you have two metro areas that mirror each other in most aspects. Whereas Atlanta doesn't have a single suburb over 100k, DFW was Arlington over 300k, Plano, Irving and Garland over 200k and Grand Prairies, Mesquite, Richardson, Carrollton, Frisco, McKinney, Lewisville and Denton over 100k (I think I got them all). Different politics here, counties don't do municipal services, if an area develops and wants water, sewer, police, sidewalks, etc, etc, it must be in a city. In Georgia, the suburban Atlanta counties provide these services and keep the suburbs at bay. In many cases, the Atlanta suburbs still have the tiny city limits they have when they original incorporated in the 1800s.

So while there is a law on the books limiting Denver now, it was given an exception for a large annexation after it came on the books and as Georgia law changed last decade, the same thing could happen there.

All of this is really beside the point, but when I am told 'the Hell' something in me rises up to counter.
Oh, no, Denver wasn't given any exception. The land for DIA was annexed in accordance with the provisions of the Poundstone Amendment. A majority of the voters in both counties, Denver and Adams, had to vote to approve the annexation. It is obvious that you're "(n)ot from the area to know such stuff off hand".
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Old 10-10-2014, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
7,369 posts, read 10,062,586 times
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Oh, no, Denver wasn't given any exception. The land for DIA was annexed in accordance with the provisions of the Poundstone Amendment. A majority of the voters in both counties, Denver and Adams, had to vote to approve the annexation. It is obvious that you're "(n)ot from the area to know such stuff off hand".
Nor do I have to be to comment on the topic at hand. The 1988 annexation proved that Denver can still annex. It annexed large swaths prior to this law and thus has a larger footprint than comparable metro area core cities further east. It will most likely remain the preeminent city in its metro area for the foreseeable future.

That is the topic at hand. I am not on the Denver page debating Denver and its annexation laws. We are here to talk about national trends, the topic at hand being suburbs that may one day eclipse their core city.
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Old 10-10-2014, 08:10 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,978 posts, read 102,527,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Nor do I have to be to comment on the topic at hand. The 1988 annexation proved that Denver can still annex. It annexed large swaths prior to this law and thus has a larger footprint than comparable metro area core cities further east. It will most likely remain the preeminent city in its metro area for the foreseeable future.

That is the topic at hand. I am not on the Denver page debating Denver and its annexation laws. We are here to talk about national trends, the topic at hand being suburbs that may one day eclipse their core city.
But you are wrong about what happened in Colorado when Denver annexed Adams County land in 1988. Denver did not receive any exemption from the provisions of the Colorado constitution. Minus the airport (about 50 sq. mi.) Denver is about 100 sm. In point of fact, Salt Lake City; Omaha; Little Rock; Portland; Philadelphia; Detroit and Raleigh are large cities that are >100 sq. mi. Cities >153 sq. miles include Wichita, KS; Montgomery, AL; NOLA; Albuquerque; Columbus,OH; Chicago; Virginia Beach; Lexington, KY; Charlotte, NC; Austin; NYC; Kansas City, MO; Memphis; Louisville, KY; Ft. Worth; Dallas; Chesapeake, VA; Indianapolis; LA; Nashville; Phoenix; Houston; OK City; Jacksonville, FL; and 4 Alaska cities. I have bolded the cities east of Denver.

List of United States cities by area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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