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Old 12-20-2014, 08:28 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,983 posts, read 102,540,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
That is not necessarily the case. There are many different factors at play. And you were the one talking recently about New Urbanism... and in New Urbanist developments, the school placement (and other similar community buildings) is very much integrated into the larger design.
It is most generally the case, at least in my area. Schools require a certain amount of land, generally several acres. They have to locate where they can get that much land. The school district is a separate entity in almost every city. One poster has told us in NYC they're part of the city govt, but that is not the case in Pittsburgh, Chicago, Denver, Omaha and every other city I'm familiar with. Many school districts are county-wide, or multi-municipality.

What was I saying about New Urbanism, other than in real life, it seems to have no standard definition? I know about the Congress for New Urbanism, but not every NU development follows their compact to the letter. Some NU developments around here don't even have schools; the kids go to the assigned school for their neighborhood, e.g. Prospect New Town and Bradburn. Even in a place like Stapleton, which does have elementary schools to accommodate all the kids, but not enough middle school or high school spots for all), the schools are part of the DPS, not an independent entity.

Even if a school is "very much integrated" things change over time. School age populations change. They increase for a while, then they decrease. So school boundaries have to be altered.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 12-20-2014 at 08:38 PM..
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Old 12-20-2014, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The school district decides where the school will be placed. Usually they are a separate entity from the city govt.
Yes, I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that if urban planners are saying their data shows where the most people with kids are living that is in need of a new school, they are going to take that information into consideration. A school district is not going to want to put a school in (typically of course, I am sure there is always going to be that school district making poor choices) where it is hard for students to access or far away from where the students going to it live.
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Old 12-20-2014, 09:40 PM
 
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The traditional school model was a "neighborhood school," generally within walking distance of most of its students. Modern schools tend to be more regional in approach, in part because lower suburban population densities mean that schools are farther from students, and economies of scale mean schools become bigger. The end result is very similar to the retail picture: as the corner store was replaced by the supermarket and the local business by the big-box store in the suburbs, the suburban school looks basically like a suburban mall, fronted by a big parking lot even though most of its occupants won't be old enough to drive for years.
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:37 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,983 posts, read 102,540,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
The traditional school model was a "neighborhood school," generally within walking distance of most of its students. Modern schools tend to be more regional in approach, in part because lower suburban population densities mean that schools are farther from students, and economies of scale mean schools become bigger. The end result is very similar to the retail picture: as the corner store was replaced by the supermarket and the local business by the big-box store in the suburbs, the suburban school looks basically like a suburban mall, fronted by a big parking lot even though most of its occupants won't be old enough to drive for years.
The main reason schools have become larger is that as teacher salaries went up to decent levels, these small one round schools were no longer sustainable. In my suburban city we have neighborhood schools with a fair size walking population. I didn't know what you're talking about; schools that look like suburban malls. Here's a link for the elementary school my kids went to:
Coal Creek Elementary School

Middle school
Louisville Middle School

I can't find a picture of the high school.
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:43 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,983 posts, read 102,540,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Yes, I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that if urban planners are saying their data shows where the most people with kids are living that is in need of a new school, they are going to take that information into consideration. A school district is not going to want to put a school in (typically of course, I am sure there is always going to be that school district making poor choices) where it is hard for students to access or far away from where the students going to it live.
Trust me, I know this stuff. The schools do their own research. In fact they have some formulas about how many kids a development of a certain size yields. In addition, in my district, they don't build in anticipation of need. They wait until the houses go in.
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Trust me, I know this stuff. The schools do their own research. In fact they have some formulas about how many kids a development of a certain size yields. In addition, in my district, they don't build in anticipation of need. They wait until the houses go in.
I trust you are right, a school district is going to do their own research, I also trust that a school district is going to take the urban planners' research into consideration as well. Why wouldn't they when they are both working for the same thing, knowing where people live and where they commute to.

Case in point is your last sentence, school districts wait until after the houses go in, the urban planners are typically involved in the process of zoning and density design where the homes are planned to go, this would also include saying where land needs to be set aside for a school where needed.
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Old 12-21-2014, 03:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Okay, looks like "Opportunity Urbanism" is a Joel Kotkin idea, so it can be safely ignored, as Joel Kotkin is wrong about everything.
No, he's not. He is an acquaintance and colleague. I don't agree with him on much, but he is most definitely right about low-cost cities being attractive to people who have or want kids.

Having read the OP, it sounds like opportunity urbanism is living in a place that is not particularly urban and taking advantage of whatever opportunities exist there for living like a real city dweller. Even Phoenix has sushi bars and bike trails (and the Heard Museum and FLW Foundation).
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:39 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,983 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
This is a great articles on the schools/urban planning links. Some of it is stuff I've been saying on this board.
http://www.smartgrowth.org/nationalc...ols_020713.pdf

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 12-21-2014 at 07:15 PM..
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Old 12-22-2014, 02:09 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeksitter View Post
I must say I'm confused. I thought New Urbanism was a sort of development out in the suburbs where houses are close together, have sidewalks, and some sort of commercial center is provided. When did it start to apply to urban hipsters who usually prefer older buildings. Isn't that old or original Urbanism?
NU is a movement to bring features--those that define many older urban spaces--back in to use after having spent many decades designing based on the requirements of the private automobile. It mostly applies to greenfield developments--trying to make them look more like old villages rather than 1990s subdivisions--but has things to say for redevelopment and for creative re-use.
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