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Old 12-24-2014, 04:40 PM
 
5,076 posts, read 8,507,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
Actually there were two voter referendums on the tunnel. The voters rejected the first. But another one was put on the ballot in 2011, which I wasn't aware of until just now, and it passed thanks to the deep pockets of supporters who vastly outspent the opponents.
As someone that lives in an area highly impacted by the project I voted for the deep bore tunnel. If that failed I'd have voted for a replacement viaduct. The only reasonable alternatives I could see would involve putting high tolls on I-5 to cut traffic volume down to manageable levels and expediting the plans for west side light rail. As it is, we're not even getting an opportunity to vote on a west side rail line until 2016, and even if it passes won't see one actually operating for another 12 years. That is too long to wait for a transportation system.

What I don't think a lot of people realize is that getting from Ballard to SoDo is extremely difficult when the viaduct is closed. Being the industrial business district, it's home to a lot of businesses selling things that you can't easily carry on the bus. Over half the time I use the current viaduct I'm moving things that weigh hundreds of pounds or more. It's not realistic to hop on a bus or train carrying 1000lbs of wood.
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Old 12-24-2014, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,519,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkarch View Post
As someone that lives in an area highly impacted by the project I voted for the deep bore tunnel. If that failed I'd have voted for a replacement viaduct. The only reasonable alternatives I could see would involve putting high tolls on I-5 to cut traffic volume down to manageable levels and expediting the plans for west side light rail. As it is, we're not even getting an opportunity to vote on a west side rail line until 2016, and even if it passes won't see one actually operating for another 12 years. That is too long to wait for a transportation system.

What I don't think a lot of people realize is that getting from Ballard to SoDo is extremely difficult when the viaduct is closed. Being the industrial business district, it's home to a lot of businesses selling things that you can't easily carry on the bus. Over half the time I use the current viaduct I'm moving things that weigh hundreds of pounds or more. It's not realistic to hop on a bus or train carrying 1000lbs of wood.
I don't know why the city is dragging it's feet to build a West Seattle light rail line. That should seriously be the next line to do and it should have been starting construction by 2016.
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Old 01-08-2015, 05:08 PM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,266,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkarch View Post
As someone that lives in an area highly impacted by the project I voted for the deep bore tunnel. If that failed I'd have voted for a replacement viaduct. The only reasonable alternatives I could see would involve putting high tolls on I-5 to cut traffic volume down to manageable levels and expediting the plans for west side light rail. As it is, we're not even getting an opportunity to vote on a west side rail line until 2016, and even if it passes won't see one actually operating for another 12 years. That is too long to wait for a transportation system.

What I don't think a lot of people realize is that getting from Ballard to SoDo is extremely difficult when the viaduct is closed. Being the industrial business district, it's home to a lot of businesses selling things that you can't easily carry on the bus. Over half the time I use the current viaduct I'm moving things that weigh hundreds of pounds or more. It's not realistic to hop on a bus or train carrying 1000lbs of wood.


Seattle's own studies shows an at-grade road plus transit upgrades and some surface street fixes could move
as many people as this badly planned tunnel project that costs 10 times as much. So the argument that
without the old viaduct or the tunnel the city breaks down is just disingenuous. The old viaduct was
inherently unsafe due to major earthquake damage which is why it is being replaced. Why in the world
would you vote to build another double decker to replace it when the next earthquake that comes along will
just knock it down again?



UPDATE on the Bertha tunnel boring machine: Guess what? As of January 2015, it still hasn't moved an inch
in the twelve months it has been stuck. Well actually it has moved: three feet back lol. And the ground
above it is still sinking.


Can Seattle Stop Its Highway Tunnel Boondoggle Before It’s Too Late? | Streetsblog USA
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,519,126 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
Seattle's own studies shows an at-grade road plus transit upgrades and some surface street fixes could move
as many people
as this badly planned tunnel project that costs 10 times as much. So the argument that
without the old viaduct or the tunnel the city breaks down is just disingenuous. The old viaduct was
inherently unsafe due to major earthquake damage which is why it is being replaced. Why in the world
would you vote to build another double decker to replace it when the next earthquake that comes along will
just knock it down again?



UPDATE on the Bertha tunnel boring machine: Guess what? As of January 2015, it still hasn't moved an inch
in the twelve months it has been stuck. Well actually it has moved: three feet back lol. And the ground
above it is still sinking.


Can Seattle Stop Its Highway Tunnel Boondoggle Before Itís Too Late? | Streetsblog USA
I would be curious to read this study, you wouldn't by any chance have a link to it?
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:56 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,049,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
Not for nothing, but the real urbanists in Seattle said to just get rid of the damn highway and put an at grade boulevard there.

Urban freeways are fairly idiotic ideas and a 100 years from now most of them will be gone from the urban cores.
Becauswe a gridlocked street is so wonderful.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:57 AM
 
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And we all know that tunnelling for a mass transit subway *never* has problems. Nope. It's magical, I tells ya!
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
2,958 posts, read 3,819,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB1967 View Post
Becauswe a gridlocked street is so wonderful.
Have you ever driven on I-5 in Seattle? You're better off biking home because that freeway doesn't move during rush hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB1967 View Post
And we all know that tunnelling for a mass transit subway *never* has problems. Nope. It's magical, I tells ya!
That's like saying that there's no difference between building a canoe and building a yacht. The difference between the size of a tunnel that light rail requires and the size of a tunnel that Bertha is digging is night and day.

We have successfully tunneled our light rail tunnels with zero delay and under budget. Furthermore, new vertical tunneling technology has also drastically reduced the cost of digging a vertical tunnel thereby making the process of installing elevators for future light rail systems (which will be very crucial for hilly neighborhoods like Queen Anne) much easier, faster, and cheaper. Obviously there is room for error, but generally speaking, tunneling a light rail tunnel is much cheaper and easier than using a behemoth burrowing drill like Bertha for an underground highway.
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,519,126 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyGatz View Post
Have you ever driven on I-5 in Seattle? You're better off biking home because that freeway doesn't move during rush hour.



That's like saying that there's no difference between building a canoe and building a yacht. The difference between the size of a tunnel that light rail requires and the size of a tunnel that Bertha is digging is night and day.

We have successfully tunneled our light rail tunnels with zero delay and under budget. Furthermore, new vertical tunneling technology has also drastically reduced the cost of digging a vertical tunnel thereby making the process of installing elevators for future light rail systems (which will be very crucial for hilly neighborhoods like Queen Anne) much easier, faster, and cheaper. Obviously there is room for error, but generally speaking, tunneling a light rail tunnel is much cheaper and easier than using a behemoth burrowing drill like Bertha for an underground highway.
Which I am so excited to see Seattle's light rail system grow and catch up to what we have been doing in Portland for decades. Though being Seattle, they will probably surpass Portland eventually with an even more complex system and of course have a subway light rail system.
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:39 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,049,638 times
Reputation: 2192
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyGatz View Post
Have you ever driven on I-5 in Seattle? You're better off biking home because that freeway doesn't move during rush hour.
And without a freeway it would be that way 24/7. See San Francisco, down my way. Thru traffic is a reality that almost no city can escape.

And I can understand the desire to depress road noise rather than elevate it. One would think even the New Urbanists would approve?
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Old 01-14-2015, 01:16 PM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, originally from SF Bay Area
29,789 posts, read 54,455,776 times
Reputation: 31093
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB1967 View Post
And without a freeway it would be that way 24/7. See San Francisco, down my way. Thru traffic is a reality that almost no city can escape.

And I can understand the desire to depress road noise rather than elevate it. One would think even the New Urbanists would approve?
This was not so much to depress noise as to provide the opportunity for someone's visions of a beautiful waterfont tourist area. By the future removal of the viaduct, condos next to it are already doubling in value. The reasons for the tunnel option do not justify the cost nor the risk.

Seattle's new waterfront: What it might look like and why | Special reports pages | The Seattle Times
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