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Old 12-25-2014, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Michigan
4,571 posts, read 7,033,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Well I'm not sure what the basis for how they classified these housing grades is. How much is structural quality, how much is amenities (ex # of bathrooms, central heating), how much is built form, how much is mixing of uses, how much is age, how much is demographics.

In any case, there are exceptions and exceptions are often where there are the most lessons to be learned:

-SW Detroit (and Hamtramck): pretty much all of it was rated 4th grade, and despite being relatively poor, doesn't have too much vacancy or population loss right now. It was rated worst than the east side, which is a mix of 3rd and 4th grade, and inner NW (i.e. Dexter Linwood, Petosky Otsego, Russell Woods, Boston Edison) which is mostly 3rd grade.

-Brightmoor: mostly 4th grade, however, east of Lahser and between Fenkell and McNichols is considered 2nd grade and east of Blackstone it even improves to 1st grade up to Minock Park. However today's severe abandonment continues several blocks into the 2nd grade and even 1st grade areas. Rosedale Park interestingly is only 2nd grade.

-Also second grade housing is at the epicentre of decay in 48205 near Gratiot Avenue around Houston Whittier and McNichols, meanwhile adjacent areas like Lasalle College Park, Mohican Regent and Regent Park that have lower levels of abandonment are rated 3rd grade

-Most of this neighbourhood is not this bad, but still, this is "first grade"
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.41292...996EZrThiw!2e0
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.42465...Po1dBGEVzA!2e0

-Boston Edison, Woodbridge and Indian Village are considered only 3rd grade, I guess some of the homes needed to be modernized? In any case they're among the most desirable parts of the city now along with 4th rate Corktown.

-Hazel Park is considered 4th grade! It's not the most desirable suburb but it's certainly doing better than most of Detroit, and Ferndale is mostly 3rd or 4th grade, and relatively desirable. Actually much of what was in the suburbs at the time wasn't rated all that well, the best rated areas were mostly in the city, in the NE and NW around W Outer Drive.

-some areas that were mapped sparsely populated in 1939 are in pretty bad shape right now, like Eminem's childhood neighbourhood around Dresden and State Fair or W Chicago to Tireman west of Southfield freeway
Many of those bad areas of 2014 could likely be traced to the more recent housing boom and bust rather than any decades long-decline. Much of the vacancies are only a recent as 2009. The fact that many inner-ring suburbs resemble the same built forms as the outer parts of Detroit is probably evidence of the foreclosure crisis disproportionately affecting minorities than any urban-specific problems. The two areas you linked in streetview were actually pretty populated in the 90s, albeit with a fair bit of crime.

However in other areas, especially Brightmoor and closer to downtown like North Corktown, etc., those seem to have been in decline since the post-war boom if not earlier.
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Old 12-25-2014, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
A Spanish urban planning glossary used Houston as an example of a "doughnut city". An extremely foreign pattern from a Spanish perspective.

Glossary: Doughnut City | Urban Attributes - Andalusia Center for Contemporary Art

Viewed from a European perspective, the Doughnut City is a phenomenon that goes against nature. If in the cities of the Old Continent proximity to the center means an added value, in the Doughnut City quite the reverse is true: the most eligible urban areas are on the final periphery.
They seem to be going off of the historic centre rather than the current centre though. Downtown Houston is a major job centre, but there are others that rival it like Uptown and Medical Centre, as well as many other significant white-collar job centres west of downtown. So if you go by where the jobs are, the centre is more around Uptown Houston. If you go by population density, the densest areas are also west of Downtown, to the point where not only west 610 loop is denser than north/east/south loop but where the areas west of 610 (Gulfton, Alief, Uptown, Westchase, Sharpstown) are even denser. This area (Downtown to Alief) is also the area where most of the future frequent bus routes will be.

It's also the most expensive part of the city, and although there are areas of poverty like Gulfton, parts of Sharpstown and parts of Alief, it also contains much of the wealthiest parts of the city. This is also where much of the office and condo development is occurring.
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Old 12-25-2014, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
Many of those bad areas of 2014 could likely be traced to the more recent housing boom and bust rather than any decades long-decline. Much of the vacancies are only a recent as 2009. The fact that many inner-ring suburbs resemble the same built forms as the outer parts of Detroit is probably evidence of the foreclosure crisis disproportionately affecting minorities than any urban-specific problems. The two areas you linked in streetview were actually pretty populated in the 90s, albeit with a fair bit of crime.

However in other areas, especially Brightmoor and closer to downtown like North Corktown, etc., those seem to have been in decline since the post-war boom if not earlier.
Pretty sure this area of 48205 would have been declining quite a bit before 2009 though, no?
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.42237.../data=!3m1!1e3

I mean sure things might have gotten worse in 2009 but I have a hard time believing 40-50% of the neighbourhood became abandoned between just 2009 and 2010. The population was still pretty stable around 1990 (though crime might have been high already?), but it looks like the rapid population loss might have started in the late 90s?
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Old 12-25-2014, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Ak-Rowdy, OH
1,522 posts, read 2,483,776 times
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Here in Northeast Ohio there are some examples of this. I think post-WWII suburbs are in a predicament that they don't offer anything that is in demand right now - smaller, outdated housing stock that is new enough that they lack the character or design of older housing, yet the neighborhoods are new enough to be largely dependent on cars and aren't laid out with pedestrian activity in mind.

It's really the worst of both worlds - poor design and layout, and built mostly to be utilitarian so there is no aesthetic appeal.

Of those that are doing ok it is mostly due to good schools and low crime, not because people desire to purchase one of blocks and blocks of 1200 sq ft cape cods with aluminum siding and cheap carpet.

Case in point, negative issues that are arising in Cleveland Heights (turn of the century suburb, good housing stock, walkable neighborhood commercial districts) seem to be a concern for people, whereas the negative issues in Maple Heights (WWII-era suburb, older strip plazas, lots of small cape cods) nobody seems to care much about.
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Old 12-25-2014, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Ak-Rowdy, OH
1,522 posts, read 2,483,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
Many of those bad areas of 2014 could likely be traced to the more recent housing boom and bust rather than any decades long-decline. Much of the vacancies are only a recent as 2009. The fact that many inner-ring suburbs resemble the same built forms as the outer parts of Detroit is probably evidence of the foreclosure crisis disproportionately affecting minorities than any urban-specific problems. The two areas you linked in streetview were actually pretty populated in the 90s, albeit with a fair bit of crime.

However in other areas, especially Brightmoor and closer to downtown like North Corktown, etc., those seem to have been in decline since the post-war boom if not earlier.
Detroit has the same problem Cleveland, Buffalo, and other Midwestern/Rust Belt cities have: a lack of regional planning has allowed for continued building of housing and retail without an increase in associated population (and sometimes even with a decrease).

Most new build is on the fringe because there is no room further inward, and people pursue newer housing stock and better schools and so each group shifts a bit outward as new housing becomes available. Without population to fill in the housing stock at the inner fringe, it rots and is demolished, leaving no opportunity to return (without major investment). Also, housing values are so low it is often not cost effective to renovate older structures so again it causes disinvestment of older neighborhoods. It's a continual cycle that pushes population further and further outward.
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Old 12-25-2014, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,062 posts, read 16,078,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
A Spanish urban planning glossary used Houston as an example of a "doughnut city". An extremely foreign pattern from a Spanish perspective.

Glossary: Doughnut City | Urban Attributes - Andalusia Center for Contemporary Art

Viewed from a European perspective, the Doughnut City is a phenomenon that goes against nature. If in the cities of the Old Continent proximity to the center means an added value, in the Doughnut City quite the reverse is true: the most eligible urban areas are on the final periphery.
And then there's reality. Neartown median home price is around $700k. There's very few neighborhooods on the periphery that desirable. Third Ward is certainly cheaper than that and not much farther out, but then it's way more expensive than farther out Southeast Houston. You've got to go down all the way to around Clear Lake until the prices start picking up again, and then still there's only a tiny few neighborhoods that come close to the prices of Neartown.

Going north of Houston it's basically a continuous drop until your reach the outter ring (Sam Houston Expressway, Highway 8) and then prices gradually pick up. Again, you've got to go all the way out to The Woodlands to see prices higher than Neartown. Yes, the prices ARE higher there, but then that's because there's so many 10,000 square foot homes on an acre of land, something you don't see in Neartown.
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Old 12-25-2014, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
And then there's reality. Neartown median home price is around $700k. There's very few neighborhooods on the periphery that desirable. Third Ward is certainly cheaper than that and not much farther out, but then it's way more expensive than farther out Southeast Houston. You've got to go down all the way to around Clear Lake until the prices start picking up again, and then still there's only a tiny few neighborhoods that come close to the prices of Neartown.

Going north of Houston it's basically a continuous drop until your reach the outter ring (Sam Houston Expressway, Highway 8) and then prices gradually pick up. Again, you've got to go all the way out to The Woodlands to see prices higher than Neartown. Yes, the prices ARE higher there, but then that's because there's so many 10,000 square foot homes on an acre of land, something you don't see in Neartown.
It would be interesting to see where housing is the least expensive in various cities in terms of how much house you get for the money (i.e. cost per sf, and correcting for lot size differences).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquareBetterThanAll View Post
Detroit has the same problem Cleveland, Buffalo, and other Midwestern/Rust Belt cities have: a lack of regional planning has allowed for continued building of housing and retail without an increase in associated population (and sometimes even with a decrease).

Most new build is on the fringe because there is no room further inward, and people pursue newer housing stock and better schools and so each group shifts a bit outward as new housing becomes available. Without population to fill in the housing stock at the inner fringe, it rots and is demolished, leaving no opportunity to return (without major investment). Also, housing values are so low it is often not cost effective to renovate older structures so again it causes disinvestment of older neighborhoods. It's a continual cycle that pushes population further and further outward.
Well there's room for new housing in the ghettos but I guess land values there are lower than on the outer fringe?
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Old 12-25-2014, 08:32 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,988 posts, read 41,959,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
And then there's reality. Neartown median home price is around $700k. There's very few neighborhooods on the periphery that desirable. Third Ward is certainly cheaper than that and not much farther out, but then it's way more expensive than farther out Southeast Houston.
Looks like Houston is more of a wedge city than a doughnut city:

radicalcartography
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Old 12-25-2014, 11:06 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,858,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Well there's room for new housing in the ghettos but I guess land values there are lower than on the outer fringe?

Ghettos can be hard to fill for new housing. Nobody wants to buy an house no matter how new in an run down area. You might be able to revive the area if the Ghetto is near an higher demand area, but if it is far from that it will just sit and rot.
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Old 12-25-2014, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Michigan
4,571 posts, read 7,033,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Pretty sure this area of 48205 would have been declining quite a bit before 2009 though, no?
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.42237.../data=!3m1!1e3

I mean sure things might have gotten worse in 2009 but I have a hard time believing 40-50% of the neighbourhood became abandoned between just 2009 and 2010. The population was still pretty stable around 1990 (though crime might have been high already?), but it looks like the rapid population loss might have started in the late 90s?
More than likely it would have started after the 2001 recession and lasted throughout the decade though certainly the finishing blow would have occurred in 2009. It was an unusually large and fast decline to say the least.

This is what the area looked like in 1997 according to aerial archives. There's signs of decay, but it still looked pretty manageable at least from above.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/1f1356ab...8zjo2_1280.png

https://38.media.tumblr.com/9b1ffdfd...8zjo1_1280.png
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