U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-09-2015, 10:13 PM
 
48,516 posts, read 83,932,349 times
Reputation: 18050

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
An internet tough guy. Your username seems appropriate.
I agree. why I can't see the point in meeting that guy; and other like him. Complete waste of time as it is breathe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-10-2015, 03:52 PM
chh chh started this thread
 
Location: West Michigan
418 posts, read 495,678 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
I made a couple maps of Detroit and Houston showing census tracts where the share of visible minorities increased by 20 percentage points or more, ex from 40% VM to 60%+ VM.
SW Ontario Urbanist: Rapid changes in racial/ethnic composition in Houston and Detroit

It's colour coded by the VM whose share of the population increased the most.
Blue = Black
Orange = Hispanic
Red = Asians

What patterns do you see?





Any surprises?
Woah, those maps are really cool. Do you think this is middle class minorities moving outside the main city, or lower class minorities spilling outside the city limits?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2015, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,847 times
Reputation: 1616
In the case of metro Detroit...

Median Household Incomes from City-data.

Harper Woods
Whites: $46,899
Blacks: $37,945

Eastpointe
Whites: $44,197
Blacks: $36,200

Warren
Whites: $43,552
Blacks: $36,147

Redford
Whites: $47,831
Blacks: $52,483

Southfield:
Whites: $41,571
Blacks: $49,909

Farmington Hills
Whites: $68,731
Blacks: $51,544
Asians: $98,991

Westland
Whites: $21,690
Blacks: $46,150

Canton
Whites: $79,536
Blacks: $63,813
Asians: $89,773

So looks like it varies.

In the case of Westland, it's lower class mostly. In the case of Warren, Eastpointe and Harper Woods it looks like it's working class/lower middle class (or a mix ranging from lower class to middle class). In the case of Southfield and Redford, it's middle class and interestingly, higher income than the whites living there. In the case of Canton and Farmington Hills it's middle class for the blacks, and upper middle class to upper class for the Asians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-13-2015, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
3,853 posts, read 7,637,136 times
Reputation: 1583
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Westland
Whites: $21,690
Blacks: $46,150

In the case of Westland, it's lower class mostly. In the case of Warren, Eastpointe and Harper Woods it looks like it's working class/lower middle class (or a mix ranging from lower class to middle class). In the case of Southfield and Redford, it's middle class and interestingly, higher income than the whites living there. In the case of Canton and Farmington Hills it's middle class for the blacks, and upper middle class to upper class for the Asians.
For Westland, you inverted them. It's $21,690 for blacks and $46,150 for whites.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2015, 04:55 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
11,810 posts, read 18,807,465 times
Reputation: 11136
"Money" will always flee from wherever it doesn't think is desirable. If that's what's meant by white flight, that's my answer. Perhaps "white flight" should be replaced by "green flight"? If it hasn't been done yet, I just coined that term. :-)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2015, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Boston
2,233 posts, read 1,304,500 times
Reputation: 2057
In Boston there is no more white flight. White people are just barely eeking backuinto the city but their share keeps declining as West Indian, African and Latin immigrants continue to increase the poverty rate and make government subsidized housing big industry here. White have gone from 49.5% in 2000 to 47% 2010 to 45% in 2015. The black population. Constantly fluctuates from 23-26%. All the increase had been in latins who've gone from 14% in 2000 to 19% in 2015. Most urban inner suburbs of Boston have gone from 60-65% white in 2000 to 45-50% circa 2015. But the few most desirable ones Somerville...Quincy....Cambridge, have almost all remained exactly 65% white on average. Poverty in the city of Boston has gone from 19% in 2000 to 21-22% in 2015 and that's without looking at the rising cost of living in Boston that time. Boston has plenty of whites that like the idea of Boston but find that their interest lie to the northern and western fringes and in Cambridge/somerville. Most of the geographic land in Boston now is comprised of majority minority neighbirhiods and the only lure for whites with money is the waterfronts t and tourist things downtown. Everywhere else has become too expexpensito be worth it given what Boston lack$ (fun). so "affordable housing" and "mixed income housing" had come to be the preffered development model for normal people, and its mostly attracted minorities. Add to this Boston had an average big city crime rate. But due to the small geography of it very large portions of the city which are residential are plagued by petty crime and somewhat serious crime on every . Many small amorphous gangs crews and sest runmamuck in individual blocks and many times street. Not too much homicide but more BNEs, flash mobs, assaults, bank robberies, larceny, grafitti. It makes crime in many parts of Boston affect you whether or not your even indirectly involved..when transplants realize outside of the CBD, Boston is really lacking and somewhat dangerous they usually move out in 3-6 years. Especially when people realize we live in one of the safest metros in America. You can pay much less to live in a virtually crime free town. We have 250 shootings a year in Boston 50 square miles with 80% of them happening 20 sq miles of the city. It just becomes a lot over 5 years. 10 shootings per square mile per year for ten years and your neighborhood is three square miles...300 shooting right around you in 10 years? Youll start feeling the residual effects soon enough.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2015, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
779 posts, read 768,736 times
Reputation: 359
I don't think white flight necessarily has the same meaning anymore but it does still happen. The original idea was that there was a mass migration of white people from racially diverse urban regions to suburban or exurban regions that were not diverse.

First of all, this is now happening where there is a migration from diverse suburbs to other suburbs that are not so diverse. Some of the older (or original) suburbs have aging residential communities which has seemed to reduce the cost of living in them. Now, people of all incomes are finding ways to move into these suburbs for schools systems and other amenities that they deem desirable. Many lower income neighborhoods were left in complete poverty and school systems without funds when white flight occurred and much of the tax base disappeared.

There has been an all out war in some of these suburbs to fight lower income individuals from entering their communities. Things as crazy as cancelling the school bus systems have happened to prevent lower income students from being able to get to school. (Or at least some of the schools systems have been accused of this being the reason.)

Now, the cost of many urban neighborhoods are starting to rise as gentrification takes place all over cities in America. It seems apparent that the trends has been reversed or at least altered significantly. New, higher income suburbs are popping up everywhere leaving older suburbs in the same situation that urban neighborhoods were in 30 years ago or more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2015, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,847 times
Reputation: 1616
White flight is definitely not as intense as it used to be though. Now that I'm looking at more data on Detroit, you can see some neighbourhoods going from 99% white to 80%+ black in a single decade both in the 60s and 70s. Not just one census tract either several, especially in the NW where white share in several adjacent census tracts dropped by 70 to almost 90 percentage points in the 60s and 70s.

Nowadays, going from something like 70% white to 30% white would be very rare, typically limited to just a few census tracts per metro area and I'm not sure there are any census tracts today where it changed by more than 60 percentage points (let alone >80!).

For the 60s, I took Detroit census tracts that were 75-99% white in 1960 and where the share of whites dropped by more than 20 percentage points. If it dropped by 20 percentage points from a starting point of 99-100%, it's likely the drop didn't start in 1960 yet, but maybe rather in the mid or late 60s. But even if it was around 95-99% in 1960, that likely meant white flight was beginning.

Here's the combined stats for these census tracts.

1960:
Whites: 92,154 (90.1%)
Blacks: 9,671 (9.5%)
Total: 102,273

1970:
Whites: 35,924 (34.8%)
Blacks: 66,431 (64.4%)
Total: 103,153

For the 70s I looked at census tracts that were 75-98% white (instead of 75-99%).

1970:
Whites: 135,182 (88.8%)
Blacks: 15,234 (10.0%)
Total: 152,258

1980:
Whites: 40,857 (29.6%)
Blacks: 93,937 (67.0%)
Total: 138,093

So in these neighbourhoods, the white share decreased by 55-60 percentage points on average even though the cut-off was only a 20 percentage point change.

I didn't include census tracts that started with lower percentage of whites, because for example if a neighbourhood is 50% white in 1960 and then 2% white a decade later, that's a 48 percentage point decrease so neighbourhoods like this would lower the average. However, maybe it was already down to 10% white in 1965 and the white flight was occurring at a very high rate from 1960-1965, and then after 1965 there just weren't that many whites left to lose.

Note that the white flight in these neighbourhoods didn't involve population loss in the 60s. It did involve population loss in the 70s, although at only half the rate of city-wide population loss.

Last edited by memph; 01-27-2015 at 09:53 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2015, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,847 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
You can look at my other posts on the subject in other threads in this forum. I've been studying the issue for 20 years and have done graduate and professional level research on the topic. You're just repeating the trope that you've been told and it doesn't stand up well to scrutiny. Your use of "urban renewal also demonstrates that you're not really following my point and that you don't really understand what urban renewal was.

Just as an example, if what you're saying is true - that white people were dumping their homes in a panic to move to the suburbs - then neighborhoods would be 90% white in one census and 10% white in the next. This never happened. The transition from post WWII to the bottoming out of the white population took 40+ years in most cases and it declined by fairly even, predictable numbers from decade to decade in nearly all cases. In fact, in many cases, white urban populations began to shift to the suburbs in the 1920s. In Philadelphia in particular most population growth and nearly all white population growth was happening in the suburbs from the 1920 census on. The only reason the white population of the city remained fairly constant (in numbers, not in percent) was because of sustained European immigration. As soon as that stopped the white population declined predictably.

Anyone who can read census data can clearly see that in the 1950s and 60s the number of white people in the family formation stage of life dwindled dramatically. Older people generally stuck around.
Check out some of the census tracts in NW Detroit:

60s, that's the area around Livernois to Meyers Rd from Pembroke to Tireman. The numbers show the change in white % from 1960 to 1970 for census tracts where the share of whites decreased by over 70 percentage points. In the middle of all this you have a census tract that went from 100%* white to 12% white... if that's not white flight I don't know what is.


*technically there was about 0.1% "other race" but 0% black.

70s, I also included some of the areas that came close to changing by 70 percentage points (in brackets). White flight is about as intense as in the 60s. Most of these census tracts are around Greenfield Rd/Southfield Fwy.


I'm guessing that the neighbourhoods in between (i.e. around Schaefer) experienced just as intense white flight, but probably half of that happened in the late 60s, half in the early 70s.

White flight seems to have slowed down in the 80s though, and today (2000-2010) the biggest percentage point change was a census tract around Rouge Park that went from 79% to 29% white.

Last edited by memph; 01-27-2015 at 11:01 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2015, 07:07 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,967,271 times
Reputation: 14805
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
Just as an example, if what you're saying is true - that white people were dumping their homes in a panic to move to the suburbs - then neighborhoods would be 90% white in one census and 10% white in the next. This never happened. The transition from post WWII to the bottoming out of the white population took 40+ years in most cases and it declined by fairly even, predictable numbers from decade to decade in nearly all cases.
The situation varied by area but there were cases where the neighborhood flipped dramatically, 90% to 10% is an extreme case, but a neighborhood like Brownsville, Brooklyn flipped very quickly in 20 years. Others did not. If what you were saying is true "race had little effect on population change in cities, it was mainly whites gradually leaving the cities as they had children" then you'd see a gradual decrease in white population throughout much of the city with minorities moving to replace them [though not to the same population as before]. That's not what occurred. Instead, some neighborhood transitioned from mostly white to mostly black while others had a much smaller change. An alternate explanation would be the white population declined in neighborhoods of worse housing quality. But if you look at a map of of black population in say, 1960, the best predictor of the neighborhoods that would have a large % decline in white population are the ones adjacent to existing mostly black neighborhoods. The simplest way to explain that pattern is "white flight". Ditto with the unusual pattern in Southeast Queens and Nassau of middle-class mostly black neighborhoods.

White Flight in Brooklyn During The Mid Part of The 20th Century
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top