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Old 12-25-2014, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Laurentia
5,593 posts, read 6,371,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
I don't believe "white flight" is always due to "racism". It has more to do with quality of life going downhill due to the behavior of newcomers. If the newcomers are good neighbors, I think that the vast majority don't mind.
Indeed. There are some wrinkles in this analysis but they're small. My view is that Whites have a lower barrier to moving than other groups due to being able to fit in most anywhere and being the highest-earning/wealthiest race aside from Asians; thus when circumstances become worse whites start to leave earlier and in greater numbers than other races. If other races had those advantages I think they would have fled around the same time whites did, leaving a mostly abandoned neighborhood with just a few criminals and the dirt poor left behind (much like parts of Detroit), rather than a poorer but still heavily populated neighborhood filled with minorities (much like parts of most other cities).

Quote:
Originally Posted by blainnyc View Post
People don't recognize it because of all the gentrification talk, but white flight is still occurring in the New York metro area. In my borough, Brooklyn, the White populations in many southeastern neighborhoods went from majority white to less than half white over the past decade or two, with a large growth in Black populations, probably being pushed from gentrifying areas in northern Brooklyn. Southwestern pasts of Brooklyn are also quickly changing from White majorities to Latino or Asian neighborhoods, with remaining "White" population consisting of increasing Middle Easterners.
The thing is gentrification mostly cancels out the pace of white flight that is remaining, producing a historically unremarkable pace of white flight overall.

Quote:
On the south shore of Long Island, in particular Nassau county, the White population is declining fast with a large growth in Black population. Similar trend in northern Staten Island, ethnic white parts of the Bronx as well.
Ferguson and this have got me wondering just how far white flight will go in the places that still do have it; increasingly, in some cities decay is now expanding from the downtown to the inner suburbs, and if it eventually spreads to the outer suburbs whites and middle class people may flee the city altogether, which would be a rather odd situation without an American precedent.
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Old 12-25-2014, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,759,792 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
White flight has happened where I live---and it's not in a city.

When we moved here in the late 80s, the area was mostly white. There were many black families who had been in the area for years and could trace their roots back to slaves in the area. Plus we had some legal immigrants. For the vast majority of residents here, they were law-abiding and lived one family to a house. Most who were parents were involved parents so the few who weren't involved in some way, really stood out.

About 10 or so years ago, things started to change. We were getting lots of illegal aliens making flop houses. Many long time residents tried to fight back. By that, I meant going to elected officials for help in changing the laws about overcrowding---to no avail. On top of that, we've had rapid growth so many long-time residents who were fed up just moved to newer communities if they wanted to stay in the area. We also lost many single women who had bought homes only to get surrounded by flophouses and they felt unsafe.

Once good schools are now so bad that we have one that can't get full accreditation.

Newer townhouse communities became overcrowded with both legal and illegal immigrants which affected nearby communities with the overflow parking.

When overall quality of life deteriorates, people---no matter what race, religion or ethnicity---start to flee.

There are some of us who are still hanging in there but it comes at a cost. Some have become depressed and given up trying to make positive change.

I don't believe "white flight" is always due to "racism". It has more to do with quality of life going downhill due to the behavior of newcomers. If the newcomers are good neighbors, I think that the vast majority don't mind.
So in these cases, how these large influxes of illegal immigrants, poor people or whoever else is blamed for the decline happen? If the neighbourhood was desirable, how come they weren't priced out?
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Old 12-25-2014, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Ak-Rowdy, OH
1,522 posts, read 2,482,598 times
Reputation: 1121
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
In the case of Cleveland for example, you have blacks moving from Cleveland's east side (or East Cleveland) to Euclid. Or from SE Cleveland to Warrensville Heights, Bedford Heights, Maple Heights, Bedford, etc. Working class whites from Cleveland's west side will probably rather upgrade to the closest inner suburb over like Parma or Brooklyn rather than Euclid or Bedford.
Drawing a broad stroke, nobody from the west side is moving to an east side suburb regardless of racial breakdown or economic background. People may move from Shaker Square to Beachwood or from West Park to Rocky River, but that's going to be it.
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Old 12-25-2014, 05:50 PM
 
10,604 posts, read 14,190,943 times
Reputation: 17199
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
So in these cases, how these large influxes of illegal immigrants, poor people or whoever else is blamed for the decline happen? If the neighbourhood was desirable, how come they weren't priced out?
Well if it's not illegals, immigrants, poor people or "whoever" then WHO is it? Rich people? Middle class people who simply lost interest in their homes? Sure they may have gone into foreclosure and skipped or whatnot but whoever is living there NOW is obviously NOT caring or ignorant about the ways of taking care of a house. Going by what the poster stated.

The answer is obviously by stacking more people in a residence than was appropriate. Landlords (loosely stated) who will rent to ANYONE as long as there's a rent being paid.

Tamarac near Ft Lauderdale had several very nice neighborhoods of small single homes as small as 750 SF one bedroom and den or two bedroom. Some 55+ HOA, Some not. Mainlands Tamarac. Originally developed in 1969 to be a destination for retirees from the Northeast but half are all ages now.

When I planned to relocate there in 2004 it was cute and well maintained. By the time I actually was ready in 2008, it was OVERRUN with houses of 8 people PLUS 2 or 4 big dogs. Fake Pit Bull fights in the streets, kids running amuck, trash piled up outside overflowing because there wasn't enough TRASH PICKUP for all those people.

You'd EASILY see 20 people at a time socializing on one little front lawn, drinking beer, blasting music, throwing chicken wing bones into the street and I'm not even kidding. (Ok that also goes on in Jacksonville so it must be a Florida anomaly and the only reason I know is I have a dog walking business) Crap like SOFAS outside under carports. Recliners. LMFAO, really. Rubbermaid storage containers piled high or just cardboard boxes. I guess that was the "luggage" or "closets".

And YES, sorry to tell you it was ethnic people/people of color. Haitians, Jamaicans, Hispanic etc.

My KID had an acquaintance defecating in his trash can at his apartment during college. (the kid was not a student in school) When asked WTF why aren't you using the toilet he said that's how he was raised because they didn't have plumbing in his village in Latin America. So at home, HERE, that's what they do. This was in BOCA RATON. No the kid didn't have anything he just happened to meet up with my kid's crowd of friends.

Last time I was at the Mainlands the 55+ seemed to be the only decent communities left - maybe half if that out of around 14 subdivisions. And YES the still OK neighborhoods were still POC but just not the uneducated ignorant class that ruined the neighborhoods I described. Hopefully it's settled down now that real estate is coming back. And some actual homeowners can clean things up or already have.
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Old 12-25-2014, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,059 posts, read 16,066,811 times
Reputation: 12635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Now, now! High school graduation is over-rated, doncha know?

Seriously, many urbanists do not want to accept that city schools are a big problem in getting hipsters to stay after they become parents of school-age children.
Actually, it is. Most high school graduates shouldn't have graduated since they're not prepared for college academically. I'm not saying that everyone has to go to college, but high school needs to prepare people for it if they want to. That's not happening now. People come out of high school needing 1-2 years of remedial education. That also severely limits them in the work force as well. High school is so bad you basically go to looking for people with AA degrees since they probably have the rough equivalent of the education a high school graduate would have in a country without a broken secondary education system. But yeah, graduating with a very poor education is still better than not graduating.
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Old 12-25-2014, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
7,542 posts, read 8,418,221 times
Reputation: 3483
Quote:
Originally Posted by chh View Post
Harper woods, Michigan, went from 85% white and 10% black in just 2000 to less then half white and 45% black in a matter of 10 years. If white flight is occurring here, is it occurring in other places in the US? Does white flight pose similar problems to communities than it did in the 50's/60's?
The idea of white people panicking because an African American family moves into a town doesn't exist today like it did in some places in the 50s/60s..

The crime rate in Harper Woods went through the roof since the turn of the century, that indicates a general decline in the community.


People do leave communities when the situation goes downhill, ascribing it to "racism" is unfair.
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Old 12-25-2014, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,059 posts, read 16,066,811 times
Reputation: 12635
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
The idea of white people panicking because an African American family moves into a town doesn't exist today like it did in some places in the 50s/60s..

The crime rate in Harper Woods went through the roof since the turn of the century, that indicates a general decline in the community.


People do leave communities when the situation goes downhill, ascribing it to "racism" is unfair.
Yup, there's three black families on my street. Two of them are great, the third... well, now that her (adult) son is back in prison, she's not too bad. She doesn't keep her house up is all. Doesn't bug me a tremendous amount. It's a neighbor's yard has crabgrass problem, which is much better than the neighbor's got a drug addiction and is turning to breaking into people's houses to support his habit problem.
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Old 12-25-2014, 06:27 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,987 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Actually, it is. Most high school graduates shouldn't have graduated since they're not prepared for college academically. I'm not saying that everyone has to go to college, but high school needs to prepare people for it if they want to. That's not happening now. People come out of high school needing 1-2 years of remedial education. That also severely limits them in the work force as well. High school is so bad you basically go to looking for people with AA degrees since they probably have the rough equivalent of the education a high school graduate would have in a country without a broken secondary education system. But yeah, graduating with a very poor education is still better than not graduating.
I don't entirely agree with you about high school graduates, but certainly no one wants their kids to go to a school with a "very poor education" product. Urbanists really have to get on the ball with this issue.
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Old 12-25-2014, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,059 posts, read 16,066,811 times
Reputation: 12635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't entirely agree with you about high school graduates, but certainly no one wants their kids to go to a school with a "very poor education" product. Urbanists really have to get on the ball with this issue.
True. It's a big bigger than that, however. Again, we're talking about 75% of high school graduates who really shouldn't have graduated. Even if you go somewhere with good schools, the schools will still give someone a diploma who has no business having one (social promotion). The difference is the parents are more likely to be involved than anything else. You're much less likely to have someone who is illiterate (19% of high school graduates are illiterate) in those schools. Of course, that means more of the illiterate high school graduates are in those bad schools. I honestly have no idea how you're supposed to teach a 12th grade English class when half the class is illiterate.
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Old 12-25-2014, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,759,792 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by runswithscissors View Post
Well if it's not illegals, immigrants, poor people or "whoever" then WHO is it? Rich people? Middle class people who simply lost interest in their homes? Sure they may have gone into foreclosure and skipped or whatnot but whoever is living there NOW is obviously NOT caring or ignorant about the ways of taking care of a house. Going by what the poster stated.

The answer is obviously by stacking more people in a residence than was appropriate. Landlords (loosely stated) who will rent to ANYONE as long as there's a rent being paid.

Tamarac near Ft Lauderdale had several very nice neighborhoods of small single homes as small as 750 SF one bedroom and den or two bedroom. Some 55+ HOA, Some not. Mainlands Tamarac. Originally developed in 1969 to be a destination for retirees from the Northeast but half are all ages now.

When I planned to relocate there in 2004 it was cute and well maintained. By the time I actually was ready in 2008, it was OVERRUN with houses of 8 people PLUS 2 or 4 big dogs. Fake Pit Bull fights in the streets, kids running amuck, trash piled up outside overflowing because there wasn't enough TRASH PICKUP for all those people.

You'd EASILY see 20 people at a time socializing on one little front lawn, drinking beer, blasting music, throwing chicken wing bones into the street and I'm not even kidding. (Ok that also goes on in Jacksonville so it must be a Florida anomaly and the only reason I know is I have a dog walking business) Crap like SOFAS outside under carports. Recliners. LMFAO, really. Rubbermaid storage containers piled high or just cardboard boxes. I guess that was the "luggage" or "closets".

And YES, sorry to tell you it was ethnic people/people of color. Haitians, Jamaicans, Hispanic etc.

My KID had an acquaintance defecating in his trash can at his apartment during college. (the kid was not a student in school) When asked WTF why aren't you using the toilet he said that's how he was raised because they didn't have plumbing in his village in Latin America. So at home, HERE, that's what they do. This was in BOCA RATON. No the kid didn't have anything he just happened to meet up with my kid's crowd of friends.

Last time I was at the Mainlands the 55+ seemed to be the only decent communities left - maybe half if that out of around 14 subdivisions. And YES the still OK neighborhoods were still POC but just not the uneducated ignorant class that ruined the neighborhoods I described. Hopefully it's settled down now that real estate is coming back. And some actual homeowners can clean things up or already have.
What I'm saying is, maybe the neighbourhood was ok at first, but a house isn't going to be occupied by the same family forever, eventually they relocate because of work, or because of retirement, or die off, or upgrade to a bigger/newer home, or whatever other reason.

So the question then is who are the people that are going to make up the second generation of residents/home buyers. For some reason the first generation was all upstanding middle class but the second (or maybe in some cases the third or fourth) generation is in large part slumlords? Why? What changed?

My argument was that part of what could be happening is that maybe outsiders looking to move into a neighbourhood don't know the locals and just assume that if there's a certain percentage of minorities it's a bad area. This then causes the neighbourhood to go downhill because it causes the pool of potential middle class buyers to be smaller, so you're more likely to get slumlords and what not.

I don't think this is the only cause, but I'm just wondering if it could be one of them.

Last edited by memph; 12-25-2014 at 07:20 PM..
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