Is white flight still a problem in the present? (Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia)
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I actually touched on this in another thread in the Economics section, but I believe that the welfare, thug, ratchet, lower class of America will actually KEEP growing due to the fact we are moving more into a Specialized Skill Economy where you are only going to have the HAVEs and the HAVE-NOTs, there won't be any "middle".
Those in the HAVEs section will be in demand not just in this country but globally, so I believe more of them are going to move out of the country and leave in other countries, while America becomes more and more like Detroit and Flint, MI on a national scale.
I think you are on to something here and why we are all seeing more homes with two, three or more families living in them.
The middle class is gradually disappearing. There are dentists and doctors and then those working "entry-level" jobs at Walmart, McDonalds, etc. Not a lot in between and less every year.
Manufacturing and other semi-skilled jobs that used to support a middle income family are disappearing, likely never to return. The 1%ers are squeezing out the unions, using undocumented works in their slaughterhouses (which used to be decent paying jobs) and so forth. So even those jobs that used to be decent paying, no longer are.
Incomes too low to support one family in a single family home, grown kids who aren't able to afford to move out and set up their own households, relatives who fall on hard times, retirees who used to have decent pensions (which have disappeared for all but government employees) but are now moving in with their kids... we are looking at a nation of multi-generational, multi-family homes.
We have several homes in our communities that are multi-generational and/or multi-family. Stuff is stacked outside. Their trash is always overflowing. Their cars are parked all over the place. The police are called on two families on almost a weekly basis for domestic disturbances. It's not easy having that many people in such a small space.
Those who can afford to live in single family homes start moving away, regardless of their ethnic origins. Those who move in bring their relative with them and many of these are black, hispanic, Middle Eastern...
As others have said, it is not so much white flight as it is income-flight. Those who can afford to live in nicer neighborhoods, do so.
In Queens and Boston many homes when first built had extended families, though they were multifamily. One family upstairs, a few relatives lived downstairs.
In Queens and Boston many homes when first built had extended families, though they were multifamily. One family upstairs, a few relatives lived downstairs.
If only there were more such homes available to house families.
Yes, my neighborhood was a place with a relatively low cost of housing per square foot. In fact, it's what attracted us to it. We were renting an apartment a couple of towns away but found that the affordable starter homes there were either in crappy areas (next to low income housing) or were really run down. So, we bought a 2 level townhouse as a starter home---and at the time, the rest of the neighbors were in the same boat as us.
Ten years later, our daughter was in middle school and we had an opportunity to trade up to a new single family house and keep her in the same school district. Things were fine at first. We were next to a townhouse community that also was new but these were nicer houses than our starter home. Over time Indians and Middle Easterners started buying the townhouses and overcrowding them. Before we knew it, our neighborhood was overrun with the townhouse residents' cars as each townhouse came with a 2-car garage and when they're overcrowded...
If you were to ask these people why they are overcrowding, they will whine and say it's the only way they can live close to their jobs. Yet some of their neighbors are enduring 25 mile commutes into the city because here is where they can afford a house and live normally---one family to a house.
Right now, our community is fighting with the county to make our neighborhood permit parking only. What was supposed to be a 6 month process is now dragging on 2 1/2 years later. It's really depressing and to be honest, some days it makes me despondent.
Our goal is to get out. Despite the surrounding townhouse mess, we can still profit when we sell the house after we spend some money updating it. What we have going that just might start to turn things around---a rail station that will be a mile away is coming---in 4 more years.
Did the townhouses have driveways or on-street parking?
Most the townhouses here built in the last couple decades do (except the stacked townhouses), so even though it's usually one car garages there's room for 2 more on the driveway. https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.69810...F4RCwdCCDw!2e0
Then there's another spot on the street (usually one for every 2 townhouses) and worst case you can widen the driveway or park on the lawn.
The older more pod-like townhouse complexes in Toronto often only have a single car garage, one spot on the driveway and a private (HOA/condo maintained) street too narrow for on-street parking. Although transit is better in many of these areas so 2 parking spots is usually enough.
ex. https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.77209...gxA3TWC45g!2e0
From what I can tell the later is more typical of American townhouse complexes, so are the ones in your neighbourhood more like that?
Some parts of Toronto do have tighter parking situations though, like here, where there are a fair bit of immigrants and probably also students attending the nearby community college. These are semi-detached homes where the lower floor has often been converted into a separate unit. https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.73369...Pmq7H8mTJQ!2e0
Is housing even further out in your area even less expensive? And is there a fair bit or is it just a couple developments in otherwise mostly rural areas?
I grew up in Flint, MI which is a DUMP. I'm 31 so I grew up in Flint when it went downhill. But I'm not sure where you got those Southfield income estimates?
Crime is way lower than the US average, matter of fact the US Crime average is double that of the average in the Sterling Heights/Clinton Township area.
What's the main difference? It's the percentage of black people within the population. If you are in a town/city where it's majority black people EXPECT the crime to be higher. I'm a black man, so I don't care if that makes me a sell-out, Uncle Tom or whatever, it's in the data and it's the truth. If you want to live in a quality area, you should START your search in areas where black people are not the majority population.
Why not just research school performance or crime rates instead of trying to use the number of blacks as a proxy though?
As for the Southfield incomes, the methodology I used was a bit different so you get a bit different results.
Say you have a city with 2 census tracts
Say you have census tract 1 with 3 households (to simplify)
A: $30,000
B: $40,000
C: $50,000
Median: $40,000
And census tract 2 with 3 households
D: $50,000
F: $70,000
G: $80,000
Median: $70,000
The city-data stats would have the median for the city as $50,000.
I would have done the average of $40k and $70k and gotten $55,000.
Median household income for blacks: $49,909
Median household income for whites: $41,571
The data is from 2009 though, as opposed to the $45k value (which is for blacks and whites combined) which is for 2012.
For Warren, Eastpointe, Harper Woods and Sterling Heights, blacks have lower incomes than in Southfield, and lower incomes than whites in the same communities. Incomes for whites in these suburbs are higher than in Southfield, especially in Sterling Heights where they're about $10k higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
On Long Island, what I've seen is that usually the neighborhoods that turn into overcrowded (often illegal) immigrant areas were the areas with the cheapest housing stock though in decent condition. Considered decent areas, but perhaps best described as "working-class". But the poorer immigrants still couldn't afford the homes, so overcrowded. Eventually, more immigrants were attracted as others of the same ethnicity lived nearby. After the hispanic immigrant population got large enough and locals got more irritated at the change in neighborhood (sometimes reasonable sometimes not — for example exaggerated crime fears), "native" whites started to avoid moving into the area while immigrants continued to flock. Overall population growth would be positive the whole time. Often, these neighborhoods had a significant (but stable) Puerto Rican population for decades and the already existing Spanish-speaking population encouraged newcomers to choose that neighborhood.
How big and new are these homes? In the Punjabi areas of Brampton, we're talking mostly 2000-3500sf + 500-1200sf basements, and mostly built after 1990. The Pakistani areas of Mississauga are similar although the people per house in those neighbourhoods aren't as big (not sure if that's because Pakistani households are smaller or Pakistanis are a smaller portion of the population).
There's also a big Chinese enclave in north Scarborough/Markham but households there are more average sized. The most Chinese dominated areas (60-85%) are mostly about 1500-2500sf homes with small basements built around 1980, and then there's wealthier more moderately Chinese dominated (40-60%) areas with <10 year old, 2000-3500sf homes. Areas with older, smaller homes tend to be less dominated by one immigrant group.
My parents moved from Toronto (Danforth/Coxwell) to Whitby years ago because the city seemed on a downward spiral and they didn't feel it was a good environment for us to grow up in. Keep in mind we lived in my father's childhood home, two doors down from the house my mother's childhood home.
Fast forward to my 20s. Friends of mine bought houses in my father's subdivision in Whitby because it was consideres a premier neighborhood to live in at the time.
In my 40's, we are all leaving. It is not because of "ethnic diversity" nor because any of us want to live in Toronto. It is because we have a problematic high-rise apartment complex on the peripheral of the neighborhood that has brought crime and hard drug use with it. The buildings are overrun with gangs and prostitutes, and are constantly in the news for assaults, domestic abuse and drug busts. On top of this, there has been a couple warnings from the police of high-risk sex offenders moving into the area after completing their sentences. Seriously... When you start getting police warnings about dangerous pedophiles relocating to the neighborhood and the local variety store is selling glass meth/crack pipes to make money of the local addicts, its time to find a new place to live. It is the general consensus that this particular high-rise complex is a blight on an otherwise nice town and the entire area would be vastly improved if it were demolished and its residents relocated to an area more suited to their particular social class.
Like where?
I doubt the people near Dundas & Sherbourne are too happy about all the housing for substance abusers and homeless there either. No one wants them to be living in their neighbourhood but they have to live somewhere.
The problem is that THIS is what you automatically assume when you see brown skin. If brown-skinned public school teachers who moonlighted as pro-bono lawyers started moving into your neighbourhood you'd immediately associate us with welfare-trash criminal types. Nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph
Why not just research school performance or crime rates instead of trying to use the number of blacks as a proxy though?
As for the Southfield incomes, the methodology I used was a bit different so you get a bit different results.
Say you have a city with 2 census tracts
Say you have census tract 1 with 3 households (to simplify)
A: $30,000
B: $40,000
C: $50,000
Median: $40,000
And census tract 2 with 3 households
D: $50,000
F: $70,000
G: $80,000
Median: $70,000
The city-data stats would have the median for the city as $50,000.
I would have done the average of $40k and $70k and gotten $55,000.
Median household income for blacks: $49,909
Median household income for whites: $41,571
The data is from 2009 though, as opposed to the $45k value (which is for blacks and whites combined) which is for 2012.
For Warren, Eastpointe, Harper Woods and Sterling Heights, blacks have lower incomes than in Southfield, and lower incomes than whites in the same communities. Incomes for whites in these suburbs are higher than in Southfield, especially in Sterling Heights where they're about $10k higher.
Here's one of my New Year's Resolutions, it's to NO LONGER be politically correct. It is what it is, if there's more black people in the area there will be more crime, a worse economy, lower incomes and more bad public schools.
I'm black and I can say it, but if I was white (or if you are white) you can say it as well because we have a RIGHT to say what we want to say.
It's the truth, I stayed in Flint, MI and Saginaw, MI which are two areas where the population is majority black. And the city/town is ratchet, full of Tyqueshas with 5 kids from 5 different thugs who are currently locked up in 5 different prisons. Then you have the DeShawns and Tyrones who are fresh out of jail with no job prospects, no assets, no car, who are 30 plus who stay in their mother's basement but Tyquesha and her "girlfriends" continually SLEEP with these pieces of trash and continue to reproduce with them.
If the population is majority black, DON'T move there. The black race has fallen so far down in the gutter as a whole, that anytime you are anywhere with a majority black crowd or popluation, you AREN'T going to see a lot of Oprahs or Obamas or Cosby people, you are going to see DeShawn, Tyrone, Tyquesha, Moesha, Sharkeisha, and all of the ratchet pieces of trash in society.
If you want to find the decent black people (like myself) we will NOT be anywhere near a city/town with a majority black population. You can find us in the Suburbs spread out.
I think you are on to something here and why we are all seeing more homes with two, three or more families living in them.
The middle class is gradually disappearing. There are dentists and doctors and then those working "entry-level" jobs at Walmart, McDonalds, etc. Not a lot in between and less every year.
Manufacturing and other semi-skilled jobs that used to support a middle income family are disappearing, likely never to return. The 1%ers are squeezing out the unions, using undocumented works in their slaughterhouses (which used to be decent paying jobs) and so forth. So even those jobs that used to be decent paying, no longer are.
Incomes too low to support one family in a single family home, grown kids who aren't able to afford to move out and set up their own households, relatives who fall on hard times, retirees who used to have decent pensions (which have disappeared for all but government employees) but are now moving in with their kids... we are looking at a nation of multi-generational, multi-family homes.
We have several homes in our communities that are multi-generational and/or multi-family. Stuff is stacked outside. Their trash is always overflowing. Their cars are parked all over the place. The police are called on two families on almost a weekly basis for domestic disturbances. It's not easy having that many people in such a small space.
Those who can afford to live in single family homes start moving away, regardless of their ethnic origins. Those who move in bring their relative with them and many of these are black, hispanic, Middle Eastern...
As others have said, it is not so much white flight as it is income-flight. Those who can afford to live in nicer neighborhoods, do so.
There you go, totally true! These race hustlers, far left folks and poverty pimps want to continue to push this racial divide like this is 1960. Today we are in a CLASS WAR, period. You have the Middle Class and Higher Class on one side (HAVEs) and the Working Class, Lower Class and Poverty Class on the other (HAVE NOTs).
These far left folks love to say that the ones on the other lower end, are struggling because "the white man" or "the system" or "capitalism" is evil, when in fact when you break down why most of those people are struggling it's due to the following:
- Having kids they couldn't afford. You couldn't take care of yourself but yet you bring in 3 kids from 3 different deadbeats?
- Having prison records. Let's see, people with no record and with college degrees are having issues getting decent employment, so where in the hell do you think you are going with a felony and no degree?
- Flat out lazy and not willing be be educated. In these areas, being educated is mocked and looked down upon. The women in these areas will DISCRIMINATE against any man trying to be educated in terms of not giving him dates, love, sex, whatever.
- Bad choices. They drink all day, smoke all day, club all night, they don't save as every paycheck they get on Friday they are at the mall Saturday and by Sunday....the money is gone.
- Violent. The cops are all "bad" they say, but yet these are the same animals that rob liquor stores, loot, sell drugs consistently, rob, steal, kill, etc. Maybe if you ANIMALS weren't so out of control then the Cops wouldn't need to be over there in the first place??
As a result of these things, those that are in the HAVE category decide to live and be around people who share their values, no matter if they are white, black, red, blue, purple or turquoise. The majority population in the HAVE category area will be Whites and Asians, as they have the most education and the most professional networks. The majority population in the HAVE NOT category will be ratchet/ghetto blacks and trailer trash/redneck whites, because they have the LEAST amount of education and the LEAST amount of professional networks.
But yet these far left, liberal, race hustling blacks call other black men like myself SELL-OUTS for staying in the area with the other HAVEs. Totally failing to address the POOR areas in the HAVE NOT communities. They are disingenuous as hell and in 2015 I'm no longer going to be politically correct on calling out their CRAP.
Last edited by jotucker99; 12-26-2014 at 12:25 PM..
Here's one of my New Year's Resolutions, it's to NO LONGER be politically correct. It is what it is, if there's more black people in the area there will be more crime, a worse economy, lower incomes and more bad public schools.
I'm black and I can say it, but if I was white (or if you are white) you can say it as well because we have a RIGHT to say what we want to say.
It's the truth, I stayed in Flint, MI and Saginaw, MI which are two areas where the population is majority black. And the city/town is ratchet, full of Tyqueshas with 5 kids from 5 different thugs who are currently locked up in 5 different prisons. Then you have the DeShawns and Tyrones who are fresh out of jail with no job prospects, no assets, no car, who are 30 plus who stay in their mother's basement but Tyquesha and her "girlfriends" continually SLEEP with these pieces of trash and continue to reproduce with them.
If the population is majority black, DON'T move there. The black race has fallen so far down in the gutter as a whole, that anytime you are anywhere with a majority black crowd or popluation, you AREN'T going to see a lot of Oprahs or Obamas or Cosby people, you are going to see DeShawn, Tyrone, Tyquesha, Moesha, Sharkeisha, and all of the ratchet pieces of trash in society.
If you want to find the decent black people (like myself) we will NOT be anywhere near a city/town with a majority black population. You can find us in the Suburbs spread out.
It's true that on average blacks have more problems than whites and asians, and probably over 90% of the time majority black neighbourhoods are bad neighbourhoods. But you don't think there are any exceptions?
In small cities like Saginaw and Flint, there's fewer middle class blacks because there's fewer people in those cities in general, so you're less likely to have majority black areas that are middle class.
In Detroit it's a bit more likely, since it's a bigger city, so you have places like Southfield. I think Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest, Indian Village, North Rosedale Park are mostly middle class or even upper middle class blacks. There might be crime issues but I suspect it's mostly from blacks that live in more ghetto neighbourhoods nearby.
There are other cities with neighbourhoods like this, View Park-Windsor Hills in LA County, or parts of Prince Georges County in MD, they're not very common, but they exist.
And then you have places like Bagley in Detroit, or Maple Heights (suburb of Cleveland)... I don't really know what they're like.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould
If only there were more such homes available to house families.
Here the new home developments are now including many in the 3,000sf/$800k-1 million range with to master suites, or have a "guest suite" that appeal to the multi-generational immigrant families from India and other Asian countries for high paying tech jobs.
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