U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-04-2015, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
7,542 posts, read 8,426,267 times
Reputation: 3483

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
A healthy downtown offers more than just office space. Housing, retail, restaurants, food, and activities are what make a downtown active outside of office hours.
Restaurants and retail are needed to support the offices and office workers, who might need to do a little shopping or pick up a sandwich at Subway. You'll see that in, or near office parks in the suburbs as well.

As far as "activities outside of office hours", the vast majority of people want to be with their families in the evening and weekends, or at least close to home. Unless you have a lot of tourists in an area, like in New York or some other cities, you aren't going to have many people in any downtown except for real special events.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-04-2015, 08:16 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 42,008,719 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
Restaurants and retail are needed to support the offices and office workers, who might need to do a little shopping or pick up a sandwich at Subway. You'll see that in, or near office parks in the suburbs as well.
The retail is also for shoppers who are not office workers, not much different from a mall or any other shopping area.

Quote:
Unless you have a lot of tourists in an area, like in New York or some other cities, you aren't going to have many people in any downtown except for real special events.
Plenty perhaps most people in the downtown area of NYC aren't tourists, if you mean the center city area.

Downtowns of Spanish cities are packed with locals in the evening hours, though that's a bit of a different situation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
11,810 posts, read 18,816,975 times
Reputation: 11136
Many decades ago, Raleigh citizens resisted a freeway bisecting the city center vertically. While many have lamented in the subsequent decades that it was a bad decision to prevent a freeway through the core, it now appears to have been the correct decision.
The compromise that the city came to was to have two parallel city streets that were one-way in opposite directions. These streets have 4 lanes each at 35 MPH and the traffic lights are timed such that one usually only has to stop once when traversing north or south through the city center. While having two 4 lane streets may seem to be daunting through a city center, having to only look one way to cross a street mitigates it and there are often times that the intersections are clear because the traffic is backed up at an upstream intersection.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2015, 08:37 PM
 
3,836 posts, read 4,717,097 times
Reputation: 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnc2mbfl View Post
Many decades ago, Raleigh citizens resisted a freeway bisecting the city center vertically. While many have lamented in the subsequent decades that it was a bad decision to prevent a freeway through the core, it now appears to have been the correct decision.
The compromise that the city came to was to have two parallel city streets that were one-way in opposite directions. These streets have 4 lanes each at 35 MPH and the traffic lights are timed such that one usually only has to stop once when traversing north or south through the city center. While having two 4 lane streets may seem to be daunting through a city center, having to only look one way to cross a street mitigates it and there are often times that the intersections are clear because the traffic is backed up at an upstream intersection.
Almost all cities did these one-way conversions - many of them are being reversed as well. Making progress!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2015, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,538,049 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
Restaurants and retail are needed to support the offices and office workers, who might need to do a little shopping or pick up a sandwich at Subway. You'll see that in, or near office parks in the suburbs as well.

As far as "activities outside of office hours", the vast majority of people want to be with their families in the evening and weekends, or at least close to home. Unless you have a lot of tourists in an area, like in New York or some other cities, you aren't going to have many people in any downtown except for real special events.
And when those hours for restaurants and retail are 10-6p, then it does nothing to add to the after hours of a downtown. If there are no one living in a downtown and no restaurants and retails are destination locations, then a downtown struggles. We have plenty of examples of that today. And a Subway is not a destination restaurant.

Those that lived downtown or near downtown would be close to home doing after office hours activities. Also just because one wants to be with their families or whatever, that doesn't mean people don't like going out and doing things after work.

Also having an active downtown with hotels, retail, and restaurants, tourism is a bigger factor that helps grow the economy of a city and gives a downtown more activity in its downtown after office hours.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2015, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,538,049 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
Almost all cities did these one-way conversions - many of them are being reversed as well. Making progress!
Depends on the street structure. Portland has small streets, therefore the one way grid system works well for the downtown because it keeps traffic flow at 12.5mph with timed lights, and makes it much easier for pedestrians with having cars moving at a much slower speed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2015, 11:18 AM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,862,208 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post

Those that lived downtown or near downtown would be close to home doing after office hours activities. Also just because one wants to be with their families or whatever, that doesn't mean people don't like going out and doing things after work.
Families need different things than singles or couples. An downtown loft with no back yard is fine when you don't have kids, but it does not appeal when you do. The high rents and tiny spaces drive families out of these places.

People do like being close to work, but both husband and wife might not work downtown(only one, the other or even neither). Lots of people live in an city and work in the burbs or live in the burbs but work somewhere other than the downtown section of an city. In both cases the downtown area just isn't for them.

Families do different things than singles or couples do. Apple bee's appeals when you have more than two people to feed. Those nice destination restaurants are pricey and kids really don't appreciate fancy food. A lot of those fun downtown things are just for singles or maybe couples. You sure as heck are not going to take the kids on an bar hop.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2015, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,538,049 times
Reputation: 7830
Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Families need different things than singles or couples. An downtown loft with no back yard is fine when you don't have kids, but it does not appeal when you do. The high rents and tiny spaces drive families out of these places.

People do like being close to work, but both husband and wife might not work downtown(only one, the other or even neither). Lots of people live in an city and work in the burbs or live in the burbs but work somewhere other than the downtown section of an city. In both cases the downtown area just isn't for them.

Families do different things than singles or couples do. Apple bee's appeals when you have more than two people to feed. Those nice destination restaurants are pricey and kids really don't appreciate fancy food. A lot of those fun downtown things are just for singles or maybe couples. You sure as heck are not going to take the kids on an bar hop.
In case you didn't know, inner city neighborhoods in the US are often times filled with single family houses with backyards. True, high rents and smaller spaces can drive some people out, but cities with healthy inner neighborhoods are often in high demand by people, including those with kids, thus the high rents.

True, there are lots of different varieties for people that makes things more or less convenient. That doesn't mean your description matches everyone, there are also people who work downtown and like living near downtown as they raise a family.

Applebee's is where people go that don't care what kind of garbage they are eating. It is cheaper to cook at home if money is an issue. Personally I love cooking at home because I know what goes into my food and it tastes much better than chain restaurants. If I am going out to eat with my wife or with a family, I want to know I am paying for quality food, Applebee's is not that, but they are the flagship of the suburbs when it comes to food.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2015, 02:31 PM
 
28,441 posts, read 71,104,696 times
Reputation: 18401
Default Wow, more falsehoods ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
In case you didn't know, inner city neighborhoods in the US are often times filled with single family houses with backyards. True, high rents and smaller spaces can drive some people out, but cities with healthy inner neighborhoods are often in high demand by people, including those with kids, thus the high rents.

True, there are lots of different varieties for people that makes things more or less convenient. That doesn't mean your description matches everyone, there are also people who work downtown and like living near downtown as they raise a family.

Applebee's is where people go that don't care what kind of garbage they are eating. It is cheaper to cook at home if money is an issue. Personally I love cooking at home because I know what goes into my food and it tastes much better than chain restaurants. If I am going out to eat with my wife or with a family, I want to know I am paying for quality food, Applebee's is not that, but they are the flagship of the suburbs when it comes to food.
Not really a surprise, but the data clearly shows it is FAR MORE LIKELY for families with children to choose to live NOT inside cities but in the suburbs that ring them -- NAHB: The Geography of Home Size and Occupancy

Fact is studies show that "important contributor to this fact may be that people have preferences for space and larger lots. This remains a difficult challenge for achieving smart growth outcomes. " -- http://www.rff.org/documents/rff-dp-09-15.pdf Golly, MARKET FORCES are a bigger factor than ZONING and people will PAY for more space in areas where there are good jobs and they can enjoy an affluent lifestyle. Real shocker...


BTW -- You get the whole chain restaurant thing COMPLETELY WRONG by targeting Applebees --


Applebee's International, Inc. - Company History, Background Information | ReferenceForBusiness.com

Quote:
...[the Applebee's concept] hit all the demographic shifts dead center,' DuPree explained in the July 5, 1994 Atlanta Constitution. 'People are tired of plastic drinks and cardboard food,' he noted. ...the restaurants were designed to project a comfortable, neighborly environment. Franchisees were encouraged to get involved with local charities and neighborhood events, and to personalize their restaurants in some way to keep them from looking like a chain restaurant that could be found in any other city in the nation. The benefit of the neighborhood strategy was that it cultivated repeat business from the local population. In fact, the Applebee's outlets targeted the crowd that would prefer to frequent a local mom-and-pop restaurant than the typical impersonal chain.
As part of the effort to personalize the restaurants, Gustin empowered individual franchisees and restaurant managers to make decisions about how their restaurants operated and even what type of food they served.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2015, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
7,542 posts, read 8,426,267 times
Reputation: 3483
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
In case you didn't know, inner city neighborhoods in the US are often times filled with single family houses with backyards. True, high rents and smaller spaces can drive some people out, but cities with healthy inner neighborhoods are often in high demand by people, including those with kids, thus the high rents.

True, there are lots of different varieties for people that makes things more or less convenient. That doesn't mean your description matches everyone, there are also people who work downtown and like living near downtown as they raise a family.
.
Inner city neighborhoods really don't offer good schools, or large enough lawns for the children to play in, or most of the time even enough space for a pool.

Further, many don't offer enough space for the automobiles of a Middle Class family.

Overall, the preference is for Middle Class people to live in neighborhoods which are set up for a middle class lifestyle, and that just isn't going to be found in a downtown apartment or tiny city house.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top