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Old 01-05-2015, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
Not really a surprise, but the data clearly shows it is FAR MORE LIKELY for families with children to choose to live NOT inside cities but in the suburbs that ring them -- NAHB: The Geography of Home Size and Occupancy

Fact is studies show that "important contributor to this fact may be that people have preferences for space and larger lots. This remains a difficult challenge for achieving smart growth outcomes. " -- http://www.rff.org/documents/rff-dp-09-15.pdf Golly, MARKET FORCES are a bigger factor than ZONING and people will PAY for more space in areas where there are good jobs and they can enjoy an affluent lifestyle. Real shocker...


BTW -- You get the whole chain restaurant thing COMPLETELY WRONG by targeting Applebees --


Applebee's International, Inc. - Company History, Background Information | ReferenceForBusiness.com
This isn't an all or nothing discussion. Just because many families choose to live out in the suburbs doesn't mean ALL families choose to live in the suburbs. And while cities like Portland and Seattle have very healthy inner city neighborhoods, that doesn't mean all cities have healthy inner city neighborhoods. That tends to add to the issues for many cities, and in many cases the chance of repair to those inner city neighborhoods are beyond repair, but each neighborhood is different and cannot be generalized.

As for Applebee's, their corporate office might tell you that they fashion themselves around that ma and pa style, but their menu and what they actually serve says otherwise. What they feed you is nothing more than cookie cutter food that you can get at any Applebee's that has no reflection on surrounding areas.
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Old 01-05-2015, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
This isn't an all or nothing discussion. Just because many families choose to live out in the suburbs doesn't mean ALL families choose to live in the suburbs. And while cities like Portland and Seattle have very healthy inner city neighborhoods, that doesn't mean all cities have healthy inner city neighborhoods. That tends to add to the issues for many cities, and in many cases the chance of repair to those inner city neighborhoods are beyond repair, but each neighborhood is different and cannot be generalized.

As for Applebee's, their corporate office might tell you that they fashion themselves around that ma and pa style, but their menu and what they actually serve says otherwise. What they feed you is nothing more than cookie cutter food that you can get at any Applebee's that has no reflection on surrounding areas.
Almost all families who can afford it live in the habitat of the Middle Class, the suburbs. No place for people to put their vehicles in inner city neighborhoods without forking over a lot for garage fees. My brother, his wife and their teenage boy who is still at home have 3 cars, a truck and a motorcycle- city living is impossible under those circumstances.

The number of public schools in the city is down, even with the high amount of families on subsidized housing, medicaid, food, the poor who still live in the city.


As far as Applebee's, I respect that you don't care for the cuisine. But plenty of people like it- enough so that it was valued at over $2 Billion when it was sold a few years ago, and anything that pleases people is fine with me. No need to try and rain on someone else's parade, some people might not like your home cooking either.
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Old 01-05-2015, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
Inner city neighborhoods really don't offer good schools, or large enough lawns for the children to play in, or most of the time even enough space for a pool.

Further, many don't offer enough space for the automobiles of a Middle Class family.

Overall, the preference is for Middle Class people to live in neighborhoods which are set up for a middle class lifestyle, and that just isn't going to be found in a downtown apartment or tiny city house.
This all completely subjective because no two inner city neighborhood is the same. How much space of lawn do children need for playing? What about small backyards with large parks nearby? Or should it be acres and acres of private land?

As for a pool, again that is subjective. A pool would be a waste of money in Portland because you would only get to use it a handful of months every year. Though a very dense town like Bayonne, NJ had a pool in most of the backyards.

What do you consider tiny? One can find homes with plenty of space in inner Portland, and I am sure that applies to many cities in this country. Heck, even big cities like Chicago offered pretty big apartments in more urban areas that would make raising a family pretty easy to do.
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Old 01-05-2015, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
Almost all families who can afford it live in the habitat of the Middle Class, the suburbs. No place for people to put their vehicles in inner city neighborhoods without forking over a lot for garage fees. My brother, his wife and their teenage boy who is still at home have 3 cars, a truck and a motorcycle- city living is impossible under those circumstances.

The number of public schools in the city is down, even with the high amount of families on subsidized housing, medicaid, food, the poor who still live in the city.


As far as Applebee's, I respect that you don't care for the cuisine. But plenty of people like it- enough so that it was valued at over $2 Billion when it was sold a few years ago, and anything that pleases people is fine with me. No need to try and rain on someone else's parade, some people might not like your home cooking either.
Well obviously those that feel the need to own several cars and other random vehicles is going to choose a more suburban lifestyle. Though not every family has 5 vehicles, it would be absurd to assume that is the norm.

You seem to think that I am saying we all need to live in dense urban neighborhoods or something. This is not an all or nothing thing. Living habits are subjective and people who do classify as middle class also live in healthy inner city neighborhoods as well as those sprawling suburbs with huge lots, swimming pools, and 4 car garages.

You seem to think only poor people live in the city, come visit Portland and I will give you a tour of what a healthy city with healthy inner city neighborhoods looks like.

Well McDonalds also does good in profits but that doesn't make their food good either. As for the sale of Applebee's, that sounds more like it covers the cost of the land than it does the franchise. As for my cooking, when you visit Portland I will make sure to cook you a home cooked meal, I highly doubt you will not like it.
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Old 01-05-2015, 04:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
This all completely subjective because no two inner city neighborhood is the same. How much space of lawn do children need for playing? What about small backyards with large parks nearby? Or should it be acres and acres of private land?

As for a pool, again that is subjective. A pool would be a waste of money in Portland because you would only get to use it a handful of months every year. Though a very dense town like Bayonne, NJ had a pool in most of the backyards.

What do you consider tiny? One can find homes with plenty of space in inner Portland, and I am sure that applies to many cities in this country. Heck, even big cities like Chicago offered pretty big apartments in more urban areas that would make raising a family pretty easy to do.
Having grown up in an inner city neighborhood of Chicago. The back yard is too small for any kid over the age of 5. Kids use a lot of space playing. We ran all up and down the alleyways and streets because you could not get active enough in the back yard. Parks were useless because they were blocks away. The few times I spent in the burbs were an real blast. I could play tackle foot ball. I could run around the yard.

While those apartments might be big, your kids can't use the back yard and those old apartments usually lack laundry facilities so you need to haul your and your kids clothes to the laundry mat. Those apartments can also lack things like rec rooms/family rooms and might only have one bathroom that you, your kids and your wife need to share in the morning. An 3 bedrooom, 2 bath house in the burbs is an common thing. In the city due to the age of the housing 2nd baths can sometimes be hard to find and there are an lot of 2 bedroom places still left in town(which has limited appeal.). The apartments also can lack parking which becomes more important when you need the car. Also having people live on top or bellow you can be noisy(imaging working nights and having an two year old jumping up and down and running on the floor above you all day!).
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Old 01-05-2015, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Having grown up in an inner city neighborhood of Chicago. The back yard is too small for any kid over the age of 5. Kids use a lot of space playing. We ran all up and down the alleyways and streets because you could not get active enough in the back yard. Parks were useless because they were blocks away. The few times I spent in the burbs were an real blast. I could play tackle foot ball. I could run around the yard.

While those apartments might be big, your kids can't use the back yard and those old apartments usually lack laundry facilities so you need to haul your and your kids clothes to the laundry mat. Those apartments can also lack things like rec rooms/family rooms and might only have one bathroom that you, your kids and your wife need to share in the morning. An 3 bedrooom, 2 bath house in the burbs is an common thing. In the city due to the age of the housing 2nd baths can sometimes be hard to find and there are an lot of 2 bedroom places still left in town(which has limited appeal.). The apartments also can lack parking which becomes more important when you need the car. Also having people live on top or bellow you can be noisy(imaging working nights and having an two year old jumping up and down and running on the floor above you all day!).
So I assume your parents moved you to the suburbs at the age of 5 because it wasn't enough space for you to play? And why were your parents letting a small child under the age of 5 run up and down alleyways?

Yes, someone who prefers that suburban 4 car garage, swimming pool lifestyle probably isn't going to like living in a Chicago apartment, nor would I expect them to like it.
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Old 01-05-2015, 05:10 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,037,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
So I assume your parents moved you to the suburbs at the age of 5 because it wasn't enough space for you to play? And why were your parents letting a small child under the age of 5 run up and down alleyways?
He's said many times he's lives and lived in the city of Chicago. The post you quoted said: The few times I spent in the burbs were an real blast. Nor did he say what age he was running up and down alleyways.

Quote:
Yes, someone who prefers that suburban 4 car garage, swimming pool lifestyle probably isn't going to like living in a Chicago apartment, nor would I expect them to like it.
He mentioned he prefers a bigger yard, not needs a giant garage and a swimming pool.
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Old 01-05-2015, 05:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
So I assume your parents moved you to the suburbs at the age of 5 because it wasn't enough space for you to play? And why were your parents letting a small child under the age of 5 run up and down alleyways?

Yes, someone who prefers that suburban 4 car garage, swimming pool lifestyle probably isn't going to like living in a Chicago apartment, nor would I expect them to like it.
My parents would have preferred to move to the burbs or an different part of the city with newer housing. It was an rough dangerous neighborhood. I would have preferred the burbs because there were few kids my age at the time. My mom stayed in the city because she was divorced and needed my grandma(who owned the house) to keep an eye on me.

No we grew up in the city and no parent lets children under 5 out of the back yard, but over 5 and the back yard is way too small. You can not play baseball in the back yard. You can't play football in the back yard even just kicking an soccer ball endangers windows. It is more than just that. Apartments can by noisy places and lacking little things like an washing machine makes life harder. The poor put up with it, the rich move elsewhere.
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Old 01-05-2015, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,560,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
My parents would have preferred to move to the burbs or an different part of the city with newer housing. It was an rough dangerous neighborhood. I would have preferred the burbs because there were few kids my age at the time. My mom stayed in the city because she was divorced and needed my grandma(who owned the house) to keep an eye on me.

No we grew up in the city and no parent lets children under 5 out of the back yard, but over 5 and the back yard is way too small. You can not play baseball in the back yard. You can't play football in the back yard even just kicking an soccer ball endangers windows. It is more than just that. Apartments can by noisy places and lacking little things like an washing machine makes life harder. The poor put up with it, the rich move elsewhere.
What kind of suburbia are you talking about? I grew up in suburbia and we still had to go to the park go play soccer or football. It sounds like you prefer more exurbs where one can get acres and acres of land for their children.

The point I was making is you made it seem like it was impossible for parents to raise a child in the city, yet that is exactly what your parents did.

This all comes back to my original point, preference on where to live is purely subjective, but tearing down inner city neighborhoods to make it easier for those living on the outskirts of the region easier to get in and out of a ballgame without having to ever go into any of those neighborhoods or downtown is the wrong way to do it, might as well build the stadium on the edge of the city border or something.
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Old 01-05-2015, 05:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
What kind of suburbia are you talking about? I grew up in suburbia and we still had to go to the park go play soccer or football. It sounds like you prefer more exurbs where one can get acres and acres of land for their children.

The point I was making is you made it seem like it was impossible for parents to raise a child in the city, yet that is exactly what your parents did.

This all comes back to my original point, preference on where to live is purely subjective, but tearing down inner city neighborhoods to make it easier for those living on the outskirts of the region easier to get in and out of a ballgame without having to ever go into any of those neighborhoods or downtown is the wrong way to do it, might as well build the stadium on the edge of the city border or something.
Not really. In Chicago the stadiums are not downtown. Some are in rough parts of the city Untied Center(or the old Chicago stadium). Some in more working class(or formerly) parts Comiskey park(old/ new). Some in more high end places(Wrigley Field) and some downtown or just outside of downtown. The truth is that there are jobs and places to go all over town and both people who live in the city as well as people who live in the burbs use the freeways to get around.

People moved out to the burbs because they wanted more space and newer housing. The house I grew up in was built in 1900. The kitchen had no dishwasher and there was an total of 3 electrical outlets in it. Want to run all those 1950ies electrical appliances in the kitchen good luck.

Bedrooms were small and only had one electrical outlet for the whole room. There was one bathroom with no shower. Oh and the bathroom had no electrical outlet no electric razor for you....

This is what older housing is and why it is so hard for it to compete with newer housing. Newer housing is better at fitting modern lifestyles. Also the burb wasn't that far out but they had lawns about twice as big and that is an big difference.
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