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Old 01-01-2015, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
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On the other hand, rail is far worse. Chicago's trains are rather infamous for being four times as loud as a busy freeway, similar to living directly under the flight path of a very nearby airport.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Originally Posted by nei View Post
Maybe. It was never that centered around downtown job-wise (shopping-wise, it had lots — the second biggest department store was in downtown Detroit), however so it wouldn't have been as useful. Perhaps a subway would have strengthened downtown. It's also likely that the decline would have happened similarly, and the city would be left with a poorly used subway system. The wide roads and ample parking would have led to low subway usage anyway. Cleveland has a rapid transit line and a mostly grade separated light rail line with very low ridership.
The two things that should have happened in Detroit is that it should have built a rapid transit system of some sort, like NYC and Chicago did, and the city should have made GM build all that office space within the downtown rather than on the coast line with its own highway access so all those workers don't have to actually go downtown to get to work. There coast line should have been preserved for park space and such.

Granted, I don't know how much say the city had with GM's location or the amount of office space they tied up into their site, but the whole complex was a mistake for the city.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
On the other hand, rail is far worse. Chicago's trains are rather infamous for being four times as loud as a busy freeway, similar to living directly under the flight path of a very nearby airport.
I would like to read this study if you have it, though is it referring to Chicago's El system or just trains in general because the city is still a large rail hub? Though I would like to see Chicago bury all of their express lines as well as expanding transit service through additional subway lines and freeing up the elevated rail lines for more local trains.

Obviously I will probably die of old age before we see Chicago building a new subway line....I am already going to be very old, if not dead before the 2nd Ave Subway line is compete in Manhattan. It is quite a shame how rapid transit has been put on a back burner in this country, though thankfully we are no longer expanding new freeways at the same rate we once were. At least light rail lines are still an active thing we are expanding in this country that I would love to see more of in just about every city.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
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I don't have anything particularly bookmarked, a quick Google search will turn up tons general newspaper article type sources however. Here's one example.

`L' is so loud it breaks law, but its sound is so familiar - Chicago Tribune

The big transit projects here tend to be of dubious value, so I don't really share your sentiment. Geary BRT, central subway, BART extension... they're all, in my mind, questionable. I'm not saying they're bad, per say, but given the cost and if this is the most useful mass transit projects available, to me it just doesn't seem like there's a gross lack of money. They're just not slam dunk projects with great bang for the buck value.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Originally Posted by nei View Post
Living near the BQE is rather nasty and the additional air pollution must be unpleasant:

In Brooklyn Heights, residents in homes overlooking the highway can be awakened by trucks during the only hours they are not slowed by traffic, between 2 and 5 a.m. If a truck going 50 miles an hour hits a single pothole, or one raised seam in the road, sleep might be finished.

“When they hit these bumps, it sounds like a bomb going off,” said Bo Rodgers, who has lived in an apartment overlooking the B.Q.E. since 1975.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/ny...pagewanted=all

Yes, I know elevated trains also are noisemakers but elevated highways are larger structures and take up more room. It's rather unsightly. But still, I agree it's got at not consuming too much room. I used to as an example to contrast with the larger Detroit and Cinncinati highways:

60 years of urban change - then band now sliders

The downside is that the BQE isn't a very good interstate. It occasionally goes down to two lanes, exits and entrances randomly alternate between left and right, lanes are shorter than the usual (10.5 feet vs 12 feet — though I haven't found it a difficulty) with short on-ramps (but who cares? you're not going to accelerate to high speed anyway). There's no shoulder in most spots, so any accident or disabled vehicle immediately jams the road. And I'm unaware of any other interstate that has a 45 mph speed limit, but you're lucky if you can make the speed limit. The random curves, merging traffic combined with the high volume make much faster speeds not that safe.

Still, it's my favorite highway in the sense of most entertaining to drive.
As much as it costs to live in Brooklyn Heights, especially along the eastern side of Brooklyn Heights with that spectacular view of Manhattan, I don't really care if they get woken up in the middle of the night by noisy trucks. I say buy better sound proof windows.

Though I am surprised that portion of the BQE hasn't been encased yet, though with the new hotel going up along the water, they are getting close to just doing that.

As for the noise and pollution, I totally get that, I was a real estate agent in Brooklyn and I have been in a number of places right next to the BQE that I thought this apartment would be great for $2000 if it wasn't next to the BQE, but if it wasn't next to it, then it would be at least $2800 or more.

I do agree with you that the entire BQE probably needs to be completely redesigned to meet present day standards, though if there is one thing I learned in New York is that a problem is always fixed with a new problem.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
The two things that should have happened in Detroit is that it should have built a rapid transit system of some sort, like NYC and Chicago did, and the city should have made GM build all that office space within the downtown rather than on the coast line with its own highway access so all those workers don't have to actually go downtown to get to work. There coast line should have been preserved for park space and such.

Granted, I don't know how much say the city had with GM's location or the amount of office space they tied up into their site, but the whole complex was a mistake for the city.
The city has a 7,000 foot long river walk and Heart Plaza is located directly along the waterfront. The Renaissance Center is literally only 1600 feet from Campus Martius Park, so i don't really see the point about GM's headquarters not being "downtown". In any regard, Quicken Loans headquarters was recently constructed at the heart of Campus Martius and the company is part of the "The Live Downtown" program which provides financial incentives to employees who decide to live or rent downtown.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Originally Posted by impala096 View Post
The city has a 7,000 foot long river walk and Heart Plaza is located directly along the waterfront. The Renaissance Center is literally only 1600 feet from Campus Martius Park, so i don't really see the point about GM's headquarters not being "downtown". In any regard, Quicken Loans headquarters was recently constructed at the heart of Campus Martius and the company is part of the "The Live Downtown" program which provides financial incentives to employees who decide to live or rent downtown.
This issue is that the GM headquarters is on the other side of the freeway loop that should have been constructed, and has a freeway connection so that all those driving in from the suburbs to work there never have to actually go downtown for the headquarters. Had all that office space been built within the downtown, it would have had a more positive effect for the downtown.

The current GM headquarters could have been built in the suburbs and had the same effect on downtown that it has today.
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
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"Urban freeways" are probably a self-limiting phenomenon in many (though not all) cities; consider one example -- Long Island.

Although it's also possible to enter Manhattan via the Lincoln Tunnel and cross the island to the Queens-Midtown or head south to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel. the majority of commercial (freight) traffic for Long Island moves via either The George Washington or Verrazano bridges; both routes usually include a second toll bridge with hefty charges.

And the practice of shipping rail carloads of merchandise -- either to warehouses in New Jersey or pushing them across the harbor on "car floats' -- died out quickly and almost completely around 1970. The heavily-unionized, labor-intensive procedures simply became too expensive in the light of standardized freight containerization. The boxes come off the rails at one of several points along the CSX and Norfolk Southern main lines into New York and Philadelphia, and short-haul truckers make the final deliveries. A single car float-oriented carreir, New York Cross harbor Railroad, remains in service, but it handles mostly low-valued, non-time-sensitive freight, such as scrap metal and construction debris.

Commuters will readily opt for alternatives to the private auto -- just as long as it gets them reasonably close to where they need to go. It's been my experience that most of the "commuter" traffic into the city by private auto involves workplaces in Nassau, Queens or Brooklyn rather than Manhattan and, the recent break in petroleum prices to the contrary, once a person learns the fine points of getting to work without (at least as much use of) a car, (s)he'll stick to it. Newer projects like the Bergen-Hudson light rail system seem to underscore the point.

About ten years ago, I spent seven months working for an industrial contractor which operated from an Eastern Pennsylvania HQ, but did a great deal of work in Brooklyn and Queens. Due to the high cost of accommodations on the East side of the Hudson, we were based in one of the motels along US 1, and rose each morning at 5 AM to service our customers (spraying weeds). Although parking our 4-ton pickup trucks at well-fenced customer properties within the City and commuting by train during the week would have saved a lot of toll money, the employer was reluctant to trust his "CoalCracker" help to find their way to the job on their own.

And finally, it needs to be understood that the demise of "retail railroading" with its much large network of branch lines, local services, yards and industrial spurs, has led to a greater dependence on interstate-grade highways for infrequent-but-oversized single shipments. The specialized trucker, rather than the railroad, is often the "heavy hauler" of choice in the present-day transportation system.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 01-02-2015 at 07:33 AM..
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:18 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Although it's also possible to enter Manhattan via the Lincoln Tunnel and cross the island to the Queens-Midtown or head south to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel. the majority of commercial (freight) traffic for Long Island moves via either The George Washington or Verrazano bridges; both routes usually include a second toll bridge with hefty charges.
I think the main reason that doesn't happen is it's not a continuous expressway, to go between tunnels involves a couple of miles of local roads (34th street), which are very slow. An elevated expressway was proposed between the two in the 60s.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:05 AM
 
Location: the real CA.
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less freeways = more street traffic.


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