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Old 01-20-2015, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,043 posts, read 102,757,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
You should be more careful when drinking soda. I did say that walking to work has a "small part" to play in walkability. I'm not trying define walkability myself, that's why I included links to those two websites. Did you see that? Or did you stop reading my comment after your spit take?

I'm defining walkability the way it was defined by those who coined it, and those who have taken responsibility for quantifying it. A high number of people walking to work certainly contributes to a neighborhood's walkability, but when a lot of people bike to work, or take public transit, it has the same effect on the community's walk score. And commuting to work is only one aspect of the larger concept. That's why I said that walking to work is only a small part.

You seemed to be dismissing the concept as a silly fad by minimizing it to the idea of "walking to work" and nothing more.
Who's that? Here's the dictionary definition: Walkability | Define Walkability at Dictionary.com
"1. capable of being traveled, crossed, or covered by walking :
a walkable road; a walkable distance.
2. suited to or adapted for walking :
walkable shoes.

Related forms
walkability, noun"
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:52 AM
 
1,319 posts, read 1,073,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Could you elaborate? In the big picture, I've lived pretty much the same as my parents did.
I'm sure your experience is not terribly unusual, but from a cultural and macroeconomic perspective, the differences between a Boomer lifestyle and that of their parents is pretty vast. I don't need to dig too deep here, but how could you argue against the 60s being an enormous generational shift? Sure, a lot of the people who were caught up in it "snapped out of it" later, but not completely.

I'll defer to the hundreds of books written on the subject when it comes to the cultural shift. But my point is that a desire to be different from one's parents doesn't just result in some kind of attitude phase. It often results in massive cultural upheaval, and even revolution in some cases. So the motive cannot be dismissed as a driving force, and waved off with the words "they're just kids. They'll grow up and catch on soon enough."

Somehow you believe that your knowledge of what they'll want in the future is better than theirs is. You may understand what it's like to experience "middle age" but you don't know what it's like to experience it as a millenial, any more than a Boomer's parents understood what it's like to be middle aged as a Boomer. Values change.

It also seems to be a Boomer assumption (along with the older Gen-Xers) that having kids = suburban life. As if it's some kind of child abuse to raise a family in an apartment, loft, or condo in an urban neighborhood. Yes, some millennials will want the yard and the picket fence, but many won't. As more millennials have kids, the city will evolve to meet their needs, with more options for great nearby elementary schools, child care facilities and kid-friendly entertainment options. The reason the city doesn't look very accommodating to young families NOW is simply that it hasn't happened yet.
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,043 posts, read 102,757,343 times
Reputation: 33089
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwiksell View Post
I'm sure your experience is not terribly unusual, but from a cultural and macroeconomic perspective, the differences between a Boomer lifestyle and that of their parents is pretty vast. I don't need to dig too deep here, but how could you argue against the 60s being an enormous generational shift? Sure, a lot of the people who were caught up in it "snapped out of it" later, but not completely.

I'll defer to the hundreds of books written on the subject when it comes to the cultural shift. But my point is that a desire to be different from one's parents doesn't just result in some kind of attitude phase. It often results in massive cultural upheaval, and even revolution in some cases. So the motive cannot be dismissed as a driving force, and waved off with the words "they're just kids. They'll grow up and catch on soon enough."

Somehow you believe that your knowledge of what they'll want in the future is better than theirs is. You may understand what it's like to experience "middle age" but you don't know what it's like to experience it as a millenial, any more than a Boomer's parents understood what it's like to be middle aged as a Boomer. Values change.

It also seems to be a Boomer assumption (along with the older Gen-Xers) that having kids = suburban life. As if it's some kind of child abuse to raise a family in an apartment, loft, or condo in an urban neighborhood. Yes, some millennials will want the yard and the picket fence, but many won't. As more millennials have kids, the city will evolve to meet their needs, with more options for great nearby elementary schools, child care facilities and kid-friendly entertainment options. The reason the city doesn't look very accommodating to young families NOW is simply that it hasn't happened yet.
Will respond later when I have more time. Gotta go.
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:59 AM
 
1,319 posts, read 1,073,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Who's that? Here's the dictionary definition: Walkability | Define Walkability at Dictionary.com
"1. capable of being traveled, crossed, or covered by walking :
a walkable road; a walkable distance.
2. suited to or adapted for walking :
walkable shoes.

Related forms
walkability, noun"
Right. You just looked up the definition of walkable as a description of a particular distance, path, or footwear. Look at the examples.

As soon as you apply it to the word "neighborhood", "community" or "city" it's a completely different concept, and a much newer one as well.

I know Wikipedia isn't authoritative, but I like the first two sentences of its entry on walkability:

Walkability
is a measure of how friendly an area is to walking. Walkability has many health, environmental, and economic benefits. Factors influencing walkability include the presence or absence and quality of footpaths, sidewalks or other pedestrian rights-of-way, traffic and road conditions, land use patterns, building accessibility, and safety, among others.[1] Walkability is an important concept in sustainable urban design.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:19 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,070,148 times
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These type of threads become frustrating lifestyle threads. Arguements based on personal ancedotes, often used to argue a trend and sometimes leave urban planning althougher and just talk about everyday life. The generation vs generation comments: as if an entire group of people of a similar age can be generalized. Some of these turn into support a overblown "Rah! Rah! The city is winning" instead of something more substantial. The more data-heavy "urban geography" threads in contrast get a bit ignored.
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:43 AM
 
3,948 posts, read 4,054,514 times
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Quote:
often used to argue a trend and sometimes leave urban planning althougher and just talk about everyday life. The generation vs generation comments: as if an entire group of people of a similar age can be generalized.
Is it really that anecdotal? We can look at population statistics and see that NYC & SF are growing again after long lulls, and that prices are increasing in walkable environments. We can see the cities that are luring the most young workers. We can see the cities and suburbs being left behind.

And of course entire groups of people the same age can be generalized: think music, think shared cultural events (9/11, Kennedy, Space Shuttle). Think how much time you spent driving cars in circles and kids spend time on-line or on their phone. Rap vs rock vs country on the pop music charts. Advertisers seriously track this sort of thing. There are of course areas that trail, but the generalizations can be made. Did your parents have college degrees? How about your grandparents? How much time did your kids spend in college? What do they want for Christmas? A car, a Nintendo, a laptop, or an ipad?
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:21 PM
 
1,319 posts, read 1,073,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOverdog View Post
Is it really that anecdotal? We can look at population statistics and see that NYC & SF are growing again after long lulls, and that prices are increasing in walkable environments. We can see the cities that are luring the most young workers. We can see the cities and suburbs being left behind.

And of course entire groups of people the same age can be generalized: think music, think shared cultural events (9/11, Kennedy, Space Shuttle). Think how much time you spent driving cars in circles and kids spend time on-line or on their phone. Rap vs rock vs country on the pop music charts. Advertisers seriously track this sort of thing. There are of course areas that trail, but the generalizations can be made. Did your parents have college degrees? How about your grandparents? How much time did your kids spend in college? What do they want for Christmas? A car, a Nintendo, a laptop, or an ipad?
I agree with this. Advertisers, Insurance Adjusters, Political Pollsters, Venture Capitalists, Developers, City Planners, etc etc, all make a concerted effort to generalize people by age demographic, among other things. So anybody... ANYBODY... making an investment in the future of their city is going to try to figure out how millenials will want to live. Those who are mostly right will become billionaires. Those who are mostly wrong will go broke.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,043 posts, read 102,757,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
These type of threads become frustrating lifestyle threads. Arguements based on personal ancedotes, often used to argue a trend and sometimes leave urban planning althougher and just talk about everyday life. The generation vs generation comments: as if an entire group of people of a similar age can be generalized. Some of these turn into support a overblown "Rah! Rah! The city is winning" instead of something more substantial. The more data-heavy "urban geography" threads in contrast get a bit ignored.
Agreed. I won't elaborate on my post in response to rwiksell's, except to say that my lifestyle is more like my parents' than unlike it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOverdog View Post
Is it really that anecdotal? We can look at population statistics and see that NYC & SF are growing again after long lulls, and that prices are increasing in walkable environments. We can see the cities that are luring the most young workers. We can see the cities and suburbs being left behind.

And of course entire groups of people the same age can be generalized: think music, think shared cultural events (9/11, Kennedy, Space Shuttle). Think how much time you spent driving cars in circles and kids spend time on-line or on their phone. Rap vs rock vs country on the pop music charts. Advertisers seriously track this sort of thing. There are of course areas that trail, but the generalizations can be made. Did your parents have college degrees? How about your grandparents? How much time did your kids spend in college? What do they want for Christmas? A car, a Nintendo, a laptop, or an ipad?
Do tell which cities and suburbs are being left behind. I'm not sure what you mean by cultural events. The whole world watched 9/11. That isn't just an event for you Millennials, some of whom weren't even born then, just as one example. Music tastes don't break down by age, IME.

Yes. My dad even had a master's. He would be 101 years old if he were still alive; my mom would be 93.

No, though some family members of that generation went to college.

One has a doctorate, one has a master's. My husband, OTOH, has a PhD and I have a BS plus graduate credits.

One said she didn't need anything; asked for a donation in her name to the American Cancer Society or Lutheran World Relief to fight Ebola. The other one couldn't think of anything, so I got her a sweater.

They have cars, laptops, ipads and kindles. I don't know about Nintendos.
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Old 01-20-2015, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii
9,728 posts, read 18,907,494 times
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I'm not sure how much of the walkable environment has been driven by the high gas prices we've had the past few years. Now that gas prices have dropped (at least, for now) will the quest for "walkability" become less?

When I look for employment, commuting time has always been a huge factor. For me, if it was more than ten minutes - twenty minutes max, I'd either not take the job or move closer to work. I'd rather work for less money and be able to walk to work than to get paid more and have to commute. The cost of a car will generally more than offset the added pay, but do the math and factor in the amount of time involved for the commute, too.
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:04 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,070,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotzcatz View Post
I'm not sure how much of the walkable environment has been driven by the high gas prices we've had the past few years. Now that gas prices have dropped (at least, for now) will the quest for "walkability" become less?
I doubt it's that connected. Driving short distances, say a few miles, doesn't cost much in gas even when gas prices are high. If all you cared about was commute time and gas costs, you'd just care about living a short drive distance from work.
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