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Old 01-26-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,699 posts, read 23,651,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Was this neighborhood built during the era of streetcars or mid 50s in the era of buses?
No, mid 1800's. Back then, horses and buggies pulled people up the steep hill from the city of Cleveland. They were wealthy people who built their mansions on the hill and worked in the city. It's what is called an "inner ring" suburb of Cleveland.

It began to be populated when people figured out how to get a trolley up the hill. But now people drive up the hill or the bus climbs it. Once the automobile came into being, it was built further out. But even though the houses weren't mansions and the people were more working class, the first neighborhoods had very large homes. They still had trees and yards and some areas had large boulevards. There are some old apartment buildings like mine which date back to the 1930's and farther. My area is near Case Western Reserve University.

What is isn't is the cookie cutter ticky tacky developments with not trees or lawns. Those can be seen much farther out of the city so they are there. I know that's what many people think of when they think of suburbs but not all suburbs are created equal. Evanston, Illinois just outside Chicago is another good example.
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Old 01-26-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,504,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
No, mid 1800's. Back then, horses and buggies pulled people up the steep hill from the city of Cleveland. They were wealthy people who built their mansions on the hill and worked in the city. It's what is called an "inner ring" suburb of Cleveland.

It began to be populated when people figured out how to get a trolley up the hill. But now people drive up the hill or the bus climbs it. Once the automobile came into being, it was built further out. But even though the houses weren't mansions and the people were more working class, the first neighborhoods had very large homes. They still had trees and yards and some areas had large boulevards. There are some old apartment buildings like mine which date back to the 1930's and farther. My area is near Case Western Reserve University.

What is isn't is the cookie cutter ticky tacky developments with not trees or lawns. Those can be seen much farther out of the city so they are there. I know that's what many people think of when they think of suburbs but not all suburbs are created equal. Evanston, Illinois just outside Chicago is another good example.
Thanks for clarifying, I was confused with what you had previously posted about your neighborhood.
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Old 01-26-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,699 posts, read 23,651,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Thanks for clarifying, I was confused with what you had previously posted about your neighborhood.
No problem.
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Old 01-30-2015, 12:58 PM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,161,709 times
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Our suburb was a village since the mid-1600's and became a suburb proper when they put up the railroad to NYC (30 mins) in the 1870's. It has 2 or 3 1700s houses, a bunch of 1800s Victorians and plenty of 1900s houses and some apartment blocks. Some alleys and roads off main street are too narrow for cars. It grew organically. While there are big old trees, some of them 200 yrs old, they are not protected. Any new owner can chop them down on a whim despite their community cultural value. One of the 1700's buildings is in danger of being demolished. It won;t take long before all traces of the past are erased.
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Old 02-01-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,324,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
The auto-dependent suburbs of today are not remotely the same as the pre-war suburbs. /thread.
Do you have some facts to support that statement?

People have been commuting from exurban/suburban settings into central cities for work since at least the early 1800s. They've used whatever transportation was available, including ferries, horses cars, trolleys, automobiles. Furthermore, people who could afford to move out of the crowded downtown area of cities have always tended to do so.

Prior to the Civil War, most cities had relatively small populations and relatively large land areas within the city limits, resulting in many cities having rural areas within the city limits. That included the "large" cities like NY and Philadelphia. In the second half of the 19th and early 20th century, as urban areas grew, outward movement of both the wealthy and the middle class from the center cities were to suburban-like developments within the city limits. The only differences between these and post-war suburbs was that the developments were within the city limits and that street cars and trolley lines moved people instead of private cars on public streets.

Many cities in the East and in the Great Lakes areas had numerous scattered industrial sites throughout the city as well as just outside the city limits. Factories and mills located on waterways or near railroad tracks. Housing for workers, from laborers to managers, grew up around these areas. Entire suburbs like Homestead, PA and Lackawanna, NY grew up around steel mills beginning in the 1880s. In the 1920s, the development of the aeronautics industry created commercial and industrial sites and communities around airports that burgeoned into much larger job centers and communities during WW II.

Many politicians and academicians as early as the 1920s anticipated expanding cities linked by automobiles, and had drawn up plans for highways to move people around these expanded cities. That these did not happen until after WW II was the result of the Great Depression and then WW II. That the consequences of development outside the city limits were detrimental to cities, especially those in the East and Great Lakes, can be attributed to the end of unlimited immigration in the 1920s and the migration of people from the East and the Great Lakes as well as parts of the Midwest to the West and to the South after WW II.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:06 AM
 
10,139 posts, read 23,279,357 times
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I don't think there were many commuters in 1820. People lived where they worked. Sometimes that was boarding houses, sometimes labor camps, sometimes urban ghettos. The suburban retreat for the masses is a 20th century invention.
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Old 02-01-2015, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,324,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
I don't think there were many commuters in 1820. People lived where they worked. Sometimes that was boarding houses, sometimes labor camps, sometimes urban ghettos. The suburban retreat for the masses is a 20th century invention.
You need to read Delores Hayden's Building Suburbia.
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Old 02-02-2015, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Chicago - Logan Square
3,396 posts, read 6,179,432 times
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Anytime someone is talking about suburbs in the 1800's you need to look at the history of the city, and especially it's history of growth and annexation.

The house that I live in now has a 15 minute L commute to the Loop, it is far closer to the Loop than O'Hare, and is considered to be close in to the center of the city. By any metrics it is in one of the densest urban areas of America (my neighborhood has a density over 20,000/sq. mile).

However, when it was built in 1879 it was considered to be at the very edge of the city. It was in a suburb (Jefferson Township). Up until 1890 or so a 10 minute walk would have put me at the edge of farmlands.

I think anytime anyone talks about "suburbs" of the 1800's or early 1900's they need to put the definition of suburbia in perspective, and also really understand how close in suburbia was until after WWII.
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Old 02-02-2015, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,416 posts, read 11,913,851 times
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I think my biggest grumble is people tend to act like the period between 1920 (the end of the streetcar suburb era) and 1950 didn't exist in terms of urban planning.

The neighborhoods built out in this era, as I've noted before, are fundamentally suburban. They have houses set back far on the property. They usually have driveways, and often garages (although in the 20s and 30s they were rarely attached). There was nothing within walking distance. If they weren't built in areas already plotted out, the roads are often curvy to "enhance the driving experience." Functionally speaking, they have all the characteristics of suburbia. The housing styles were often a little bit different (particularly in the 1920s, when there were still some late-period foursquares and all ornament hadn't been expunged from houses) but otherwise they were little different from what we understand as suburbia.

Of course, as noted above, these suburbs were quite often within city limits, which would lead some people to not call them suburbs. But IMHO a form or function-based definition of suburbia is the only thing that makes sense, since local incorporation patterns vary so dramatically from place to place.
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Old 02-02-2015, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,324,391 times
Reputation: 13779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attrill View Post
Anytime someone is talking about suburbs in the 1800's you need to look at the history of the city, and especially it's history of growth and annexation.

The house that I live in now has a 15 minute L commute to the Loop, it is far closer to the Loop than O'Hare, and is considered to be close in to the center of the city. By any metrics it is in one of the densest urban areas of America (my neighborhood has a density over 20,000/sq. mile).

However, when it was built in 1879 it was considered to be at the very edge of the city. It was in a suburb (Jefferson Township). Up until 1890 or so a 10 minute walk would have put me at the edge of farmlands.

I think anytime anyone talks about "suburbs" of the 1800's or early 1900's they need to put the definition of suburbia in perspective, and also really understand how close in suburbia was until after WWII.
Exactly right.

In the 1860s, there were potato farms and cow pastures in the northern part of Manhattan, and New York City encompassed only Manhattan Island. NYC annexed part of the Bronx in 1874, the rest of it in 1895, and finally Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island in 1898. Within those annexed areas, however, there were still lots of greenfield development lands.

The first "suburb" in Buffalo was developed in the 1830s in Johnson Park which is slightly west of downtown today, but was much further from the center of the city back since the business district of the city, and most residents, lived much closer to the Erie Canal Basin and the Buffalo Harbor. future president Millard Fillmore's house was located on Niagara Square, where Buffalo's City Hall is now located, which was a residential area in the 1850s.

The flood of immigration from the 1880s until 1914 and the migration of rural people to the cities looking for opportunities from the Civil War through WW II swelled the size of cities, especially in the East, Great Lakes, and parts of the Midwest, and most were pretty well built out by 1930. If it had not been for the Great Depression and WW II, development would have spilled over the city limits sooner.

What WW II did was bring even more people into cities and their peripheral areas to work in war industries at the same time as there were very limited resources available to build new housing. Where the industries were located a considerable distance outside the city limits, temporary worker housing was constructed which eventually morphed into some of the earliest "suburban" neighborhoods when the war ended.
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