U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-28-2015, 07:40 PM
 
48,516 posts, read 84,010,700 times
Reputation: 18050

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
NJ has a pattern where there's large municipalities with a lot of poor people, and small municipalities with fewer much wealthier people. And all the municipal governments are more or less corrupt. Thus, people calling for municipal consolidation are usually looking for the wealthy areas to be the piggybanks for the poor ones, since consolidation will leave the wealthy people outvoted. That's really not going to solve anything.
The major reason urban areas have problems is it expensive to provide services as areas grow. In time the real loss in a mix population is industrial tax base. Then it shifts and individuals move out. Detroit was perfect example of what happens when industrial tax base dies in a mixed wealth area.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-01-2015, 09:39 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,141 posts, read 9,921,221 times
Reputation: 6429
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Does the state have the right to abolish municipalities or merge them with neighboring ones?
I believe that States are supposed to be sovereign in their own borders, so they should be able to abolish, create, merge or change any community or county boundary they want too. For instance, I believe in Massachusetts they have abolished many county governments.

Sometimes States force communities to consolidate even they do not want. During the vote for consolidation of the City of Greater New York, several towns and cities voted NO, (including if I remember right the Town of Flushing). Even the City of Brooklyn barely said YES, by less then 300 votes. They were all consolidated anyway without the possibility of a revote.

List of former municipalities in New York City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Having said that, these days it would not be surprising to see judges interfering in state policies, including Federal judges who should have no business in how states run their local governments.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2015, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,448 posts, read 11,951,877 times
Reputation: 10561
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Does the state have the right to abolish municipalities or merge them with neighboring ones?
Dunno about New Jersey, but in Pennsylvania the only way to dis-incorporate a city or borough is if the majority of the population votes to do so (then it reverts to its original township). The state has been floating the idea of forcibly dis-incorporating "Act 45" municipalities (e.g., financially troubled cities and boroughs of various which are under state oversight), but this won't give powers to eliminate small municipalities more generally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
Tavistock broke away from Haddonfield over liquor laws.
The country club wanted to sell booze but Haddonfield is a dry town.
It's a lightning rod issue in a lot of NJ boroughs - still.
Pennsylvania has its own version of this.

Pennsylvania used to have a rule which allowed two cities to be merged if the combined majority of both acquiesced, rather than a majority of each one in turn, which allowed for more rapid consolidation. However, this was undone roughly 100 years ago. Thankfully basically nothing can further fragment cities and boroughs today (you'd need a majority across the whole area to agree, just not the portion which wants independence), but IIRC, it's still fairly easy to form new boroughs out of township land.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2015, 03:55 PM
 
9,521 posts, read 14,857,889 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I believe that States are supposed to be sovereign in their own borders, so they should be able to abolish, create, merge or change any community or county boundary they want too.
Thats right, but they have to do it according to their own Constitution. As far as I can tell (but I'm not a lawyer), the NJ constitution restricts the legislature from managing the internal affairs of a municipality ("by private, special or local laws", which means they can make rules for all municipalities but not single out a particular one), but nothing restricts it from dissolving them. But again, I've never heard of it being done; the closest it came is taking over the city of Camden for a time; that was done by making a "general" law which just happened to only apply to Camden.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2015, 05:07 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,037,172 times
Reputation: 14811
The NY Constitution mentions special rules or exceptions for cities over a million to avoid singling out a specific city. In Australia, the entire Syndey metro would be contain the majority of the state of New South Wales' population. To avoid government competition, the state prevented the city of Sydney from annexing its suburbs; the city has 170,000 people. It's rather consistent, it's a bit of a historic relic why there should be one large central city and lots of small municipalities on the outskirts. Instead of having fragmented newer suburbs, have everything fragmented!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2015, 05:09 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,037,172 times
Reputation: 14811
Massachusetts took over the government of Chelsea, an old industrial city next to Boston that went bankrupt in the early 90s.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 11:45 AM
 
1,265 posts, read 2,154,033 times
Reputation: 1430
Spaaking of municipal fragmentantion, the situation is quite bad in France.

Look at how divided is Paris metropolitan area.

Red: Municipalities part of urban area
Orange: Municipalities part of the metropolitan area outside the main urban area.
Municipalities are delimited with white lines
Metropolitan areas are delimited with green lines
Black lines are delimiting Departements

There are 412 municipalities in Paris urban area and 1,798 municipalities in Paris metropolitan area.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 06:08 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,037,172 times
Reputation: 14811
How much government power do French municipalities have? Are the ones out of the urban area but in the metro area low density suburbs or more rural? I assume the population per municipalities in the orange zone is rather low.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
7,542 posts, read 8,431,287 times
Reputation: 3483
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I believe that States are supposed to be sovereign in their own borders, so they should be able to abolish, create, merge or change any community or county boundary they want too. .
Depends on the laws and the constitution of each state.

The US Constitution guarantees each state a republican form of government, and each centralized state government can only do what its constitution allows and all of the states have a division of power between the state and local subdivisions.

Pennsylvania's laws make it difficult to push municipalities together that don't want to be together. And that's the law we have, until they amend the PA Constitution.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 09:09 PM
 
1,265 posts, read 2,154,033 times
Reputation: 1430
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
How much government power do French municipalities have? Are the ones out of the urban area but in the metro area low density suburbs or more rural? I assume the population per municipalities in the orange zone is rather low.
They have almost full power in urban planning (execpt for major strategic places like airports).

There were 1,791,068 people living outside the urban area in Paris metropolitan area (Paris metropolitan area: 12,341,418 inhabitants) in 2012.

It is true that the orange muncipalities have a very small population, the most populated is Meaux with 53,623 followed by Rambouillet 25,833 and Etampes 24,320.
There are only a dozen of municipalities with more than 10,000 inhabitants out of thousand municipalities outside the urban area.

Many French enjoys what is called "periurban" life, this is mean living in a village close to nature but working in the city.
About the look, it depends, some looks more like low suburbs and some other look like a rural village but all are acting as exurbs
Usually, you have a small old village core with no or very few shops left (most people go in shopping malls and big box stores) and it is surrounded by more recent low density suburban home. It is a mix of both.



This kind of life is even much more developped among the other large cities of France than in Paris.
More than 25% of Toulouse and Bordeaux metropolitan area population live outside the main urban area compared with less than 15% in Paris metropolitan area.
More than 30% in Nantes and more than 50% in Rennes (Rennes is a little apart bvecause of its green belt).
Toulouse, Bordeaux, Nantes and Rennes are all among the fastest growing metropolitan areas in France.

Note that France is the only country in Europe that defines its metropolitan areas with a strict definition, a definition based on commute patterns.
When you see a metropolitan area data for other european countries, it is mostly guesstimate based on density or closeness rather than on commute.

Last edited by Minato ku; 04-02-2015 at 09:17 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top