U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-03-2015, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,509 posts, read 12,034,908 times
Reputation: 10610

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clampdown69 View Post
The whole reason for modern suburbs is to avoid the associated ills of the city. Welfare case gangster types and new immigrants are the realm of the city. People spend the money to avoid that.
To a great degree you are right. I'd quibble that the suburbs were built out for a number of other reasons besides avoiding "the poors" however, including a desire for lower pollution, more outside space, and modernized housing.

However, to the degree that suburbs are a "product" (the individual homes certainly are) they undergo depreciation as an asset over the years, all other things being equal. More capital investment may shore them up (e.g., modernized infrastructure, homes remodeled to fit more contemporary taste, or even destruction of the original housing stock and replacement with modern infill). Or they may have assets which increase in value again over time (larger historic housing, walkable business district) or resilient characteristics (like a good school district). But in the long run, since newer suburbs will be built, older suburbs will mostly decrease in comparable value, and attract a lower class of residents.

This would be true even without gentrification of the urban core. Indeed, in the case of Long Island, I'm simply not certain how much of a role gentrification of NYC is playing. Gentrification in Brooklyn is limited to maybe 1/3rd of the borough (from around Greenpoint down to Windsor Terrace or so). Central/South Brooklyn is not really gentrifying, just filling up with immigrants. In Queens, I can't think of anywhere outside of Astoria which has seen considerable gentrification, although the Asian population is exploding there. Regardless, New York State as a whole has a white population shrinking not just in relative, but absolute numbers (and the same is likely true for the native-born black population), so it's not surprising that suburban areas in Long Island are getting more diverse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-03-2015, 08:58 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,062,449 times
Reputation: 2192
Quote:
Originally Posted by drum bro View Post
most people in cities live in small houses in the suburbs in the us. weird thread
The Party elites want to socially engineer the proles back into statist housing blocks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 09:00 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,062,449 times
Reputation: 2192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clampdown69 View Post
Why do people want to urbanize everything? Why is urbanity the only viable option?

The suburbs represent homogeneity. They were never intended to be anything else. Cities are where different people mix, some people like myself value a homogenous community.
Actually, I find many suburbs in my neck of the woods far more diverse than the "New Urbanist" areas, with their uniformity of bohemian hipster metrosexuals!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 09:02 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,062,449 times
Reputation: 2192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clampdown69 View Post
Is that true? Are they choosing it? Or are they doing what all young people do which is try to be trendy so they are doing it because apparently everyone else is doing it. That sounds like an ad canpaign to me. Young professionals have money to spend and it's easier to market and sell a product to people who concentrated in a small area. It's more cost efficient to have your consumer base completely in Williamsburg as opposed fanned out across the tri-state.

Young people actually like living in the suburbs, that's why they move into the city and turn their area into suburbs. A concentrated area of upper class whites with disposable income who want crime free streets and retail that is geared high end.

If young people liked living in cities they would want to step over disposed dirty needles in the street and hear gunshots at night. If they liked living in cities they would enjoy rushing home at 5pm as soon as work is over so they get home before dark. If they liked living in cities women would want to have to need a male chaperone to walk them to the store if they absolutely needed something at night time because a woman walking with a man is less likely to get assaulted. If they likes living in cities they would enjoy keeping "mugger money" and an credit card ready in thier pocket like a toll while keeping their actual cash and plastic in their undies/bra/sock so the expected mugging a couple of times avyear wasn't that much of a blow.


That's city living..

They like suburban living, but it's easier to get their money when they are sll in one location so they bring the burbs to the city and vice versa
THIS. And if / when these young hipsters have children, it will be back to the burbs for them. Nothing wrong with these "New Urbanist" enclaves--in fact they are quite fun--but they simply are not suited for child raising.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,509 posts, read 12,034,908 times
Reputation: 10610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clampdown69 View Post
Is that true? Are they choosing it? Or are they doing what all young people do which is try to be trendy so they are doing it because apparently everyone else is doing it. That sounds like an ad canpaign to me. Young professionals have money to spend and it's easier to market and sell a product to people who concentrated in a small area. It's more cost efficient to have your consumer base completely in Williamsburg as opposed fanned out across the tri-state.

Young people actually like living in the suburbs, that's why they move into the city and turn their area into suburbs. A concentrated area of upper class whites with disposable income who want crime free streets and retail that is geared high end.

If young people liked living in cities they would want to step over disposed dirty needles in the street and hear gunshots at night. If they liked living in cities they would enjoy rushing home at 5pm as soon as work is over so they get home before dark. If they liked living in cities women would want to have to need a male chaperone to walk them to the store if they absolutely needed something at night time because a woman walking with a man is less likely to get assaulted. If they likes living in cities they would enjoy keeping "mugger money" and an credit card ready in thier pocket like a toll while keeping their actual cash and plastic in their undies/bra/sock so the expected mugging a couple of times avyear wasn't that much of a blow.


That's city living..

They like suburban living, but it's easier to get their money when they are sll in one location so they bring the burbs to the city and vice versa
The problem with this analysis is that the U.S. gentrification is basically returning to the norm of everywhere else in the world. The U.S. was pretty much unique in the mid 20th century in that the wealthy and middle class abandoned the core city entirely (probably because nowhere else in the industrialized world had the same racial issues we did - meaning no white flight). In Europe, Canada, Australia, etc this never happened, and the old historic wealthy areas right near Downtown stayed wealthy. The location of poor people varies (in some countries it's in other parts of the cities, in others they are found on the suburban outskirts) but the areas around the core are invariably rich (and getting richer all the time).

Hence, a lilly-white, low crime, upscale area doesn't mean it's becoming a suburb. It just means it's becoming what a rich urban neighborhood was 100 years ago - or what rich urban neighborhoods were like in Europe the whole time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Chicago - Logan Square
3,396 posts, read 6,206,664 times
Reputation: 3717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clampdown69 View Post
If young people liked living in cities they would want to step over disposed dirty needles in the street and hear gunshots at night. If they liked living in cities they would enjoy rushing home at 5pm as soon as work is over so they get home before dark. If they liked living in cities women would want to have to need a male chaperone to walk them to the store if they absolutely needed something at night time because a woman walking with a man is less likely to get assaulted. If they likes living in cities they would enjoy keeping "mugger money" and an credit card ready in thier pocket like a toll while keeping their actual cash and plastic in their undies/bra/sock so the expected mugging a couple of times avyear wasn't that much of a blow.


That's city living..


No, no it's not. Even when US cities hit their nadir in the 80's there were plenty of areas in cities where that was not true.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
3,113 posts, read 4,932,813 times
Reputation: 5436
The more I read of the OP's "defense" of what he wants, the uglier it gets.

It seems that "homogeneity" is a euphemism for racism, classism, and homophobia.

I suggest the market solution, either buy a farm and live an existence isolated from everyone else, or build your own Utopian community where you can keep all the minorities, poor people, gays, drug dealers, muggers, and bad students out.

I am outta this thread.

Peace.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 11:05 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,062,449 times
Reputation: 2192
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The problem with this analysis is that the U.S. gentrification is basically returning to the norm of everywhere else in the world. The U.S. was pretty much unique in the mid 20th century in that the wealthy and middle class abandoned the core city entirely (probably because nowhere else in the industrialized world had the same racial issues we did - meaning no white flight). In Europe, Canada, Australia, etc this never happened, and the old historic wealthy areas right near Downtown stayed wealthy. The location of poor people varies (in some countries it's in other parts of the cities, in others they are found on the suburban outskirts) but the areas around the core are invariably rich (and getting richer all the time).

Hence, a lilly-white, low crime, upscale area doesn't mean it's becoming a suburb. It just means it's becoming what a rich urban neighborhood was 100 years ago - or what rich urban neighborhoods were like in Europe the whole time.
With Europe's massive immigration in recent decades, not anymore.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,509 posts, read 12,034,908 times
Reputation: 10610
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB1967 View Post
With Europe's massive immigration in recent decades, not anymore.
Immigrants mostly live in the suburbs in a lot of European countries (particularly France and Sweden). Even when they live in the city, they more often are found in lower-income areas on the outskirts, not the wealthy areas in the urban core.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2015, 11:19 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,062,449 times
Reputation: 2192
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Immigrants mostly live in the suburbs in a lot of European countries (particularly France and Sweden). Even when they live in the city, they more often are found in lower-income areas on the outskirts, not the wealthy areas in the urban core.
True, but even in a city like Paris, French whites are trying to avoid the bad banlieues and when they can't be in the central city, they are going suburban, or is that exurban? Yes, the Euroslums are located on the periphery rather than the core of their cities, but the desire to escape the bad areas exists nonetheless.

KB homes (a.k.a., Kaufman & Broad), an American suburban home builder, actually has a French operation too!

http://www.ketb.com/

Last edited by NickB1967; 03-03-2015 at 11:35 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top