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Old 05-12-2015, 01:52 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
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The cycleway has priority here, but so many things suggest otherwise. The kerb-line, for example, curves around and across the cycleway. The yellow lines do the same, creating vagueness in priority.
Quote:


This is real cycle infrastructure, and real walking infrastructure – genuine, proven to be safe, tried-and-tested design, quite unlike the type of tokenistic rubbish we’re used to getting.

Here, the whole area doesn’t look like a road, it looks like footway, with a cycleway running through it. It’s clear that this isn’t the domain of motor vehicles. Nobody is “on the road” when cycling or walking through here – quite the opposite, it’s motor vehicles that are guests “on the path”.

The whole junction area is raised up to footway level (rather than people on bikes and on foot having to drop down to carriageway level) and motor vehicles must mount a ramp to enter the junction.

This ramp, plus sharp corners, slows cars right down. It also provides better visibility between drivers and those whose path the drivers are crossing – nobody needs to look back over their shoulder. It works in all weather, 24 hours a day.
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,056 posts, read 16,063,174 times
Reputation: 12630
There's not always enough room to put in a 40 foot strip for a bike line that's not generally even used nor does there need to be. That works okay in the later example as there is room (some of it doubling for horizontal parking). In the former example, there's no room. The infrequently used bicycle lane would take up the entire roadway.

As to ambiguity, I don't really know. It's pretty much common since that you can't drive over a bicyclist going straight because you want to make a turn. I really don't buy that you'd get that far with your "but the lines confused me, officer, so I thought I could just drive over him since the lines went over his lane" excuse. I sure wouldn't rely on an absence of paint (second picture from your link) in providing any safety as the author does. Lack of paint won't make any difference. If a car isn't paying attention to a bicyclist, they're certainly not going to pay attention to an absence of paint.
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:41 AM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
There's not always enough room to put in a 40 foot strip for a bike line that's not generally even used nor does there need to be. That works okay in the later example as there is room (some of it doubling for horizontal parking). In the former example, there's no room. The infrequently used bicycle lane would take up the entire roadway.
Agreed on premise, but the author argues that is the A+ of infrastructure. In the former example, as the author argued:

Quote:
Further along the same road, a different junction is much better. Yes, it is still flawed, but the priority is much clearer:



Note how the surface of the cycleway is unbroken by kerbs or painted lines. (This junction would be much better with a continuous footway too.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
As to ambiguity, I don't really know. It's pretty much common since that you can't drive over a bicyclist going straight because you want to make a turn. I really don't buy that you'd get that far with your "but the lines confused me, officer, so I thought I could just drive over him since the lines went over his lane" excuse. I sure wouldn't rely on an absence of paint (second picture from your link) in providing any safety as the author does. Lack of paint won't make any difference. If a car isn't paying attention to a bicyclist, they're certainly not going to pay attention to an absence of paint.
In the US, through laws and street design, we've established a clear superiority of cars over cyclists and pedestrians. And, as both a driver and a cyclist, I've witnessed drivers' anger as cyclists or pedestrians "take" their roadway away from them and upend that superiority.

You're right, drivers should be paying attention. But, as 50 years of roadway design has proven in the US, drivers don't pay full attention. The more a given roadway is designed to accommodate the driver, the faster cars tend to be driven, the more likely we are to see incidents, and the more likely we are to see serious injury or fatalities, especially between cars and other modes. While I want to agree with you, I sympathize with the message of the author because we have to work with people as they are, not as we'd prefer them to act.
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,759,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
There's not always enough room to put in a 40 foot strip for a bike line that's not generally even used nor does there need to be. That works okay in the later example as there is room (some of it doubling for horizontal parking). In the former example, there's no room. The infrequently used bicycle lane would take up the entire roadway.

As to ambiguity, I don't really know. It's pretty much common since that you can't drive over a bicyclist going straight because you want to make a turn. I really don't buy that you'd get that far with your "but the lines confused me, officer, so I thought I could just drive over him since the lines went over his lane" excuse. I sure wouldn't rely on an absence of paint (second picture from your link) in providing any safety as the author does. Lack of paint won't make any difference. If a car isn't paying attention to a bicyclist, they're certainly not going to pay attention to an absence of paint.
I agree that the design probably won't have much of an effect on how the driver reacts if he sees a bicyclist, but do you think it could affect how carefully they check for bicyclists as they prepare to cross the bike lane?
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,053 posts, read 29,499,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Agreed on premise, but the author argues that is the A+ of infrastructure. In the former example, as the author argued:





In the US, through laws and street design, we've established a clear superiority of cars over cyclists and pedestrians. And, as both a driver and a cyclist, I've witnessed drivers' anger as cyclists or pedestrians "take" their roadway away from them and upend that superiority.

You're right, drivers should be paying attention. But, as 50 years of roadway design has proven in the US, drivers don't pay full attention. The more a given roadway is designed to accommodate the driver, the faster cars tend to be driven, the more likely we are to see incidents, and the more likely we are to see serious injury or fatalities, especially between cars and other modes. While I want to agree with you, I sympathize with the message of the author because we have to work with people as they are, not as we'd prefer them to act.
Bike lanes have helped a lot here in Portland, which this city does probably the best I have personally seen at putting pedestrians and bikes first, and even then we still have incidents with cars being careless. Though that doesn't mean we also have pedestrians and cyclists who are also careless, they just cause more damage than the cars do.
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:26 AM
 
2,824 posts, read 3,347,033 times
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The title of the blog does not reflect the discussion. The title suggests the topic is prioritizing aesthetics over utility or anything else in infrastructure design. This is really more appropriately designated bad signage for traffic.

Local governments have been rushing to spend taxpayer dollars in many jurisdictions to alter existing infrastructure. The alteration is supposed to give the appearance of "cycle friendly" or "pedestrian friendly". The alteration in pursuit of dubious desgnations has led to signage in numerous areas that is confusing, high maintenance, and visually distracting - even to the point of operating wholly opposite to the supposed purpose of the signage to begin with.
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:22 AM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, originally from SF Bay Area
29,750 posts, read 54,373,866 times
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If you consider what the city of Seattle has done, neither aesthetics nor utility (nor safety) seems to be a priority.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...hspart=mozilla

http://seattletimes.wpengine.netdna-...-2-620x477.jpg



https://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...hspart=mozilla
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,056 posts, read 16,063,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
I agree that the design probably won't have much of an effect on how the driver reacts if he sees a bicyclist, but do you think it could affect how carefully they check for bicyclists as they prepare to cross the bike lane?
That seems thin to me. I don't think the fog line wrapping around the turn or simply terminating would have any difference at all on what people see. People don't pay attention to paint, like this driver driving in the bike lane.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7856..._Q!2e0!6m1!1e1

Or the city (and everyone else) obstructs the bike lane:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7901...V1p55cTCYg!2e0

Something more noticeable, yeah. Sharrows and pigmented bike lanes might cause you to be more on lookout for bicycles, even though they're largely ignored anyway. But something subtle like the fog line wrapping around the turn I don't think is going to make any difference to anyone in anyway one way the other. Having the fog line not wrap around won't cause anyone to be on any greater lookout than the absence of the fog line wrapping. Anyone that is going to right-hook a cyclist making a turn is likewise going to do it whether or not the fog line wraps or terminates. It's just too subtle to be meaningful either way. Sharrows might help reinforce that bikes also are entitled to the road but the law is already clear on that. It's just reinforcement of that point.

Last edited by Malloric; 05-15-2015 at 09:05 AM..
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:32 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
That seems thin to me. I don't think the fog line wrapping around the turn or simply terminating would have any difference at all on what people see. People don't pay attention to paint, like this driver driving in the bike lane.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7856..._Q!2e0!6m1!1e1

Or the city (and everyone else) obstructs the bike lane:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7901...V1p55cTCYg!2e0

Something more noticeable, yeah. Sharrows and pigmented bike lanes might cause you to be more on lookout for bicycles, even though they're largely ignored anyway. But something subtle like the fog line wrapping around the turn I don't think is going to make any difference to anyone in anyway one way the other. Having the fog line not wrap around won't cause anyone to be on any greater lookout than the absence of the fog line wrapping. Anyone that is going to right-hook a cyclist making a turn is likewise going to do it whether or not the fog line wraps or terminates. It's just too subtle to be meaningful either way. Sharrows might help reinforce that bikes also are entitled to the road but the law is already clear on that. It's just reinforcement of that point.
Well, the idea is to visually reinforce the hierarchy of right-of-way in any given context. Continuous sidewalks and bike lanes, visually unbroken by streets and driveways, create the idea that drivers are leaving "their" space and entering the pedestrian's or cyclists space. And, frankly, the idea of using visual cues to introduce to drivers that the context has changed--say, from freeways to city streets--isn't new and has been studied and shown to matter; where streets are designed like freeways--wide lanes, long curves, long sightlines--drivers drive closer to freeway speeds, regardless of posted limit.

And, as I have alluded to previously, I've had driver get mad at me, while as a cyclist, for being (legally) on the road; I've been told I should be riding on the sidewalk by drivers mad that they had to wait to change lanes to pass me; I've seen drivers fail to yield to pedestrians making legal crossings. Seems like people take the idea of ownership of street space very serious and that anything to establish and reinforce who has legal right-of-way is a good thing. Obviously, just my own anecdotes.
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Old 06-19-2018, 03:45 AM
 
6,056 posts, read 10,837,768 times
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Functionality remains vital. Although, that factor is literally able to collectively combine smoothly within principles of aesthetics. Accompanying equal alliance. Relevant cash funds original source delivery ending up an obstacle or is the situation not that bad? Never fatally discourage these improving resources onto society. Are governing entities failing for what they can offer? Minimal costs stunners is realistic. Isn’t ever overly lofty or wrongly fantastical. Evenly practical motives that is solid guarantee to final results.
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