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Old 01-19-2016, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,875 posts, read 25,139,139 times
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Sure, they're not at all related. No left turns is done for the opposite reason. It's actually done to INCREASE rather than DECREASE through traffic.
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Old 01-20-2016, 11:14 AM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
45,983 posts, read 53,478,433 times
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New Jersey bans left turns on arterial roads
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Old 01-22-2016, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,871,835 times
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I am going back on topic. The Key Route wins for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_System

Every time I see a map I cry. The most perfect transit system destroyed by cars. It went exactly everywhere I ever go now, all over Oakland, Berkeley, Emeryville, Albany etc. And it went to San Francisco on the Bay Bridge. In fact it ran up my street. They named the city buses that ride to SF after their former Key System routes.
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,875 posts, read 25,139,139 times
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More aptly destroyed by prosperity and the preference for cars combined with diminishing reason for it to exist. Cars were nothing new in the 1950s, which is really when the key system began to decline in ridership. It hadn't been profitable for a long time, going through a series of consolidations and bankruptcies from 1908 through 1929, limped along until its hostile takeover and ultimate shuttering. With much of the land developed, the impetus for carrying a money loser to push real estate sales which was largely why it existed to begin with was gone.

Just like there is with old cars, there's a lot of nostalgia around old transit. Truth was it wasn't the greatest system. It was severely neglected and in very poor condition with overcrowding by the 1940s as result of there not being any investment in the system due to it not being profitable. That tends to get forgotten. Instead imaginary conspiracies are cooked up about the demise being freeways or such. Eastshore Highway didn't even begin construction until 8 years after the last of the Key System streetcars had stopped running. Plus it really was just a Near Bay and San Francisco commuter service anyway. BART is a much better commuter system than it ever was with far higher capacity, and even it's at this point pretty worn down and has its overcrowding issues.
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,871,835 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
More aptly destroyed by prosperity and the preference for cars combined with diminishing reason for it to exist. Cars were nothing new in the 1950s, which is really when the key system began to decline in ridership. It hadn't been profitable for a long time, going through a series of consolidations and bankruptcies from 1908 through 1929, limped along until its hostile takeover and ultimate shuttering. With much of the land developed, the impetus for carrying a money loser to push real estate sales which was largely why it existed to begin with was gone.

Just like there is with old cars, there's a lot of nostalgia around old transit. Truth was it wasn't the greatest system. It was severely neglected and in very poor condition with overcrowding by the 1940s as result of there not being any investment in the system due to it not being profitable. That tends to get forgotten. Instead imaginary conspiracies are cooked up about the demise being freeways or such. Eastshore Highway didn't even begin construction until 8 years after the last of the Key System streetcars had stopped running. Plus it really was just a Near Bay and San Francisco commuter service anyway. BART is a much better commuter system than it ever was with far higher capacity, and even it's at this point pretty worn down and has its overcrowding issues.
But the Key Route was a superior in town system. At least 70% of my trips in Oakland, Berkeley and Emeryville follow some Key route. The routes were along the key main streets and the development pattern still meshes with the line.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,875 posts, read 25,139,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
But the Key Route was a superior in town system. At least 70% of my trips in Oakland, Berkeley and Emeryville follow some Key route. The routes were along the key main streets and the development pattern still meshes with the line.
Yes, development generally follows mode of transportation. Unfortunately as great as it may have once been, it was not economically viable. It would be useful to have now, but local service stopped in the '40s. Perhaps the local governments should have bought the Key System in the late '40s before it was dismantled and carried the dud for 50 years or so. I mean, it wasn't in demand then but today with 3x the population in Alameda county, although much of it is not in the near bay the Key System served, and renewed interest in city living it would be useful now. But anyway, they didn't do that. I'm less familiar with the Key System although what I know about it it's remarkably similar to Seattle's streetcars and probably just about every other streetcar system that went defunct during that period of time. Seattle did attempt to step in and save the streetcars, a decision that ousted two mayors and ultimately lead to a federal bailout of the city. Much like the streetcar network in Seattle would be an asset today, at the time it was just a huge liability that took down both the private and public-private operators and would have bankrupted Seattle as well had the federal government not stepped and bailed them out.

Last edited by Malloric; 01-23-2016 at 07:08 PM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,871,835 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Yes, development generally follows mode of transportation. Unfortunately as great as it may have once been, it was not economically viable. It would be useful to have now, but local service stopped in the '40s. Perhaps the local governments should have bought the Key System in the late '40s before it was dismantled and carried the dud for 50 years or so. I mean, it wasn't in demand then but today with 3x the population in Alameda county, although much of it is not in the near bay the Key System served, and renewed interest in city living it would be useful now. But anyway, they didn't do that. I'm less familiar with the Key System although what I know about it it's remarkably similar to Seattle's streetcars and probably just about every other streetcar system that went defunct during that period of time. Seattle did attempt to step in and save the streetcars, a decision that ousted two mayors and ultimately lead to a federal bailout of the city. Much like the streetcar network in Seattle would be an asset today, at the time it was just a huge liability that took down both the private and public-private operators and would have bankrupted Seattle as well had the federal government not stepped and bailed them out.
Oakland is studying a streetcar now and running a free. Us along tg proposed route. The proposed route is basically a Key System line.

Oakland is building BRT along another line!
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