Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Busing in the 1960s - not the 1950s - was the "hinge" that got the cities to empty out (of white middle class people). This, on top of greater prosperity, the Interstate Highway System, and all the other factors mentioned above, was the immediate cause of the depopulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
Denver's population has increased by about 66% since 1950. Denver has not annexed any land since 1976, except for the land on which the airport is built. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver
I think old cities depopulating is mainly limited to the eastern half of the US. Some stagnated or had slight declines in the 70s, but nothing like depopulation. Also note that population change is often from household size change; Boston lost over 25% from 1950 to 1990 but actually had a slight gain in housing units. Baltimore had a similar population change, but lost housing due to abandonment.
Let's not forget that, even in the Industrial age, demand outstripped production capacity of plants in the cities. New ones were built outside the city limits, giving rise to the industrial suburb. Many workers didn't want to live so close to industry (who could blame them?) and moved further out. Pent-up demand following the Great Depression and WWII drove this and reached a crest around 1950.
Washington DC suburbs are still thriving. In the 1970s, NYC suburbs didn't do that great, either. NYC suburbs haven't seen as much job growth as the city, but many are rather affluent and few haven't become poorer.
The NYC suburbs didn't see the job growth because NYC is the only city in the country with world class public transportation. In most other cities, there was no choice. You built office parks 20 miles out of the city because that's where the employee pool could live and get to the office. In DC, for example, government workers take the Metro to the city. Private sector workers largely work on the beltway or outside the beltway where everyone commutes via automobile.
I'd also quibble about the NYC suburbs. Stamford, CT looks nothing like the 1970's. It's now a huge edge city. All the Big Pharma is in North Jersey. Most people who live in the NYC tri-state burbs don't ride a train to Manhattan.
I can't parse your "...few haven't become poorer." Have you ever looked at NYC tri-state suburban property prices? Other than the Bay Area, it's the most expensive real estate in the country. Fairfield, Westchester, Nassau, Suffolk, all the commutable North Jersey counties. A house in a former blue collar town is $750K.
I can't parse your "...few haven't become poorer." Have you ever looked at NYC tri-state suburban property prices? Other than the Bay Area, it's the most expensive real estate in the country. Fairfield, Westchester, Nassau, Suffolk, all the commutable North Jersey counties. A house in a former blue collar town is $750K.
Washington DC suburbs are still thriving. In the 1970s, NYC suburbs didn't do that great, either. NYC suburbs haven't seen as much job growth as the city, but many are rather affluent and few haven't become poorer.
Yes, Washington, D.C. suburbs thrived when the city was in trouble and thrive now. Many of the NJ suburbs which were business centers before have become (or returned to being) bedroom suburbs; NJ has suffered a lot of loss of businesses. My point isn't that the cities and its suburbs always move in opposite directions, only that they can.
And they were expensive, had poor and outdated merchandise.
Out of curiosity, in what city back in the 40's and 50's did you live where the stores sold "poor and outdated merchandise?" This was certainly not the case in my Chicago neighborhood in those decades. The people who owned the shops took pride in their stores. One could go to a bakery, butcher store, green grocer and dry goods and other food stores that were small and specialized in the sense that's they sold only one or two type of items. These were always top notch. There were also hardware stores, dry cleaners and many more all within walking distance catering to the people who lived in the area.
My inner city neighborhood in Chicago was blue collar lower middle class income. No one could afford anything expensive. In fact, when supermarkets people had to drive to first came in, I remember my mom complaining their prices were higher than those of the stores around us.
When you bought a chicken or meat from the butcher store it was fresh and wrapped in paper. The eggs were wonderful. Nothing tasted like plastic as it does today.
Sure there may have been poorer neighborhoods that had shoddy goods but the the majority of the average working class neighborhood stores had good quality merchandise.
Last edited by Minervah; 07-02-2016 at 01:35 PM..
Reason: corrected sentence for clarity.
Out of curiosity, in what city back in the 40's and 50's did you live where the stores sold "poor and outdated merchandise?" This was certainly not the case in my Chicago neighborhood in those decades. The people who owned the shops took pride in their stores. One could go to a bakery, butcher store, green grocer and dry goods and other food stores that were small and specialized in the sense that's they sold only one or two type of items. These were always top notch. There were also hardware stores, dry cleaners and many more all within walking distance catering to the people who lived in the area.
My inner city neighborhood in Chicago was blue collar lower middle class income. No one could afford anything expensive. In fact, when supermarkets people had to drive to first came in, I remember my mom complaining their prices were higher than those of the stores around us.
When you bought a chicken or meat from the butcher store it was fresh and wrapped in paper. The eggs were wonderful. Nothing tasted like plastic as it does today.
Sure there may have been poorer neighborhoods that had shoddy goods but the the majority of the average working class neighborhood stores had good quality merchandise.
I only spent 7 months of my life in the 40s, having been born in June of 1949. My memory goes from about the mid-50s and later. By then, supermarkets were the norm, plus the little corner stores that like today's convenience stores were more expensive. Because they were smaller, they had less selection, and items sometimes sat on the shelves a long time.
I only spent 7 months of my life in the 40s, having been born in June of 1949. My memory goes from about the mid-50s and later. By then, supermarkets were the norm, plus the little corner stores that like today's convenience stores were more expensive. Because they were smaller, they had less selection, and items sometimes sat on the shelves a long time.
ETA: I grew up in a steel mill town outside of Pittsburgh, close enough to be part of the MSA. It had 14,000 people at its peak, which was in the 50s/60s. It simply didn't have enough people to support what Minervah was describing in Chicago.
Prior to WW2 most citie were actually Utilities that provided utilities and road services. They didnt have a lot of power over what people did with their land.
After WW2 a lot of people came back from France and Germany and other older cities and wanted theirs city to look like the European cities.
Most americans wanted nicer cities too. The typical American city was a bunch of buildings side by side with no green area at all.
So there was a big push to change the powers that cities had and they became more authoritarian.
They instituted things like zoning and city planning which forced people who didnt want to comply to their vision out of the cities.
Many older buildings were condemned and either seized or sold to developers to build many of the modern high rises and parks you see in cities today.
Entire sections of cities were leveled to build parks and to widen roads to create boulevards with gardens in the middle. Unfortunately most of the buildings and land they went after was used by businesses who were entirely unhappy with what was going on and left. Along with them went the jobs and people and the cities declined.
I only spent 7 months of my life in the 40s, having been born in June of 1949. My memory goes from about the mid-50s and later. By then, supermarkets were the norm, plus the little corner stores that like today's convenience stores were more expensive. Because they were smaller, they had less selection, and items sometimes sat on the shelves a long time.
So we are talking about two very different areas and two different genres of stores. This was not the situation where I lived at all. The small shop owners took pride in what they sold. Many were first generation European and had a background of small family businesses in the old country. They sold good quality merchandise whatever it was.
I remember the housewives of the neighborhood looking upon the large supermarkets in distrust because they didn't know who owned them.They couldn't schmooze with the butcher or chat with the bakery owner.
The the store owners' families worked in the stores, their kids went to school with their customer's kids. Store owners had a stake in the neighborhood because they lived there.
I can even remember some of these stores through the 70's. I guess we have had very different experiences living in different places.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
