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The OP's question was if drive-through businesses have a role in walkable neighborhoods. They do not really - just like an auto-body shop doesn't have a role in a walkable neighborhood business district. Noting that isn't the same as saying they should be banned though.
Yes, that was the question. Is that not a restriction on drive-throughs? Have I missed something here all along?
Last edited by nei; 10-12-2016 at 03:08 PM..
Reason: bickering
You don't have to like drive-through food. It's mostly fast food. Doesn't matter. Some people do like it. Some eat it because, well, it's fast.
You have a 5 year old granddaughter? That doesn't sound quite right. I didn't say kids ate exclusively from kids' menus. I really don't think you have any kids, or you'd know that kids tend to be not too adventurous in the eating dept. even if someone does like oysters, and others don't want Asian two days in a row.
Again, I certainly never said people choose where to live based on availability of drive-throughs. Where did that come from? Probably the same place that someone else got the idea I'm some sort of conspiracist!
The safety issue that coschristi, not me, brought up was this: "I think another issue that has not been mentioned is safety. Many places close the lobby area to walk-in's by a certain time in the evening to protect the workers; eliminating drive-up's would eliminate all & any revenue that they would normally be able to make after 9 or 10pm."
I meant to say my friend's 5 year old. I am child free. Around 1/3 of my friends are parents that live here. All of immediate friends do have surprisingly adventurous eaters. I was a picky eater as a kid. But I also had no problem with spicy food and Indian food. That doesn't mean I didn't like chicken tenders. Bay Area parents (and kids) seem to expose their kids to all sorts of food early. A friend has her daughter helping (and enjoying) pickles.
The closest drive thru is Wendy's. They close at 10. The inside closed at 9. Burger King is open till 11i think. Both of these are off the beaten path of much of the foot traffic and the driving traffic. I think they are able to survive because they bought a long time ago.
As I mentioned, in areas where 30% or more of the population doesn't drive and the fact drive throughs don't allow walking or biking, it doesn't seem fair to prioritize non inclusive infrastructure that makes walking and biking less safe.
I meant to say my friend's 5 year old. I am child free. Around 1/3 of my friends are parents that live here. All of immediate friends do have surprisingly adventurous eaters. I was a picky eater as a kid. But I also had no problem with spicy food and Indian food. That doesn't mean I didn't like chicken tenders. Bay Area parents (and kids) seem to expose their kids to all sorts of food early. A friend has her daughter helping (and enjoying) pickles.
The closest drive thru is Wendy's. They close at 10. The inside closed at 9. Burger King is open till 11i think. Both of these are off the beaten path of much of the foot traffic and the driving traffic. I think they are able to survive because they bought a long time ago.
As I mentioned, in areas where 30% or more of the population doesn't drive and the fact drive throughs don't allow walking or biking, it doesn't seem fair to prioritize non inclusive infrastructure that makes walking and biking less safe.
Last things first, I can't stand the "it's not fair" argument. It sounds like kindergarten on the playground, and I did raise two kids to adulthood, so I've heard that a lot.
Secondly, when/where did I (or anyone) say anything about "prioritizing" drive throughs or any other " non inclusive infrastructure that makes walking and biking less safe". Non-inclusive? What the H*** is that? Biking is pretty non-inclusive to the disabled, also to parents of very small kids. You're not supposed to use a bike seat for your child until about 1 year of age. In some locales, that is set by law. Infant / Baby / Kid; Bicycle, Trailer, Backpack, Child Carrier, Helmet & Bike Safety
Who says drive throughs make walking and biking unsafe? No one has shown any data that supports that. Unless you have a street that is totally car-free, you have to watch for cars at intersections and alleys. Drive throughs are no different.
I don't really care about these progressive "Bay Area kids". As much as you and the other residents of the Bay Area may think you're so different, kids are kids. The kid who eats pickles may not eat hot dogs. The kid who likes sushi may not like apple pie. And so on.
Last edited by nei; 10-12-2016 at 03:09 PM..
Reason: off topic / bickering
Last things first, I can't stand the "it's not fair" argument. It sounds like kindergarten on the playground, and I did raise two kids to adulthood, so I've heard that a lot.
Secondly, when/where did I (or anyone) say anything about "prioritizing" drive throughs or any other " non inclusive infrastructure that makes walking and biking less safe". Non-inclusive? What the H*** is that? Biking is pretty non-inclusive to the disabled, also to parents of very small kids. You're not supposed to use a bike seat for your child until about 1 year of age. In some locales, that is set by law. Infant / Baby / Kid; Bicycle, Trailer, Backpack, Child Carrier, Helmet & Bike Safety
Who says drive throughs make walking and biking unsafe? No one has shown any data that supports that. Unless you have a street that is totally car-free, you have to watch for cars at intersections and alleys. Drive throughs are no different.
I don't really care about these progressive "Bay Area kids". As much as you and the other residents of the Bay Area may think you're so different, kids are kids. The kid who eats pickles may not eat hot dogs. The kid who likes sushi may not like apple pie. And so on.
I find drive throughs in areas busy with pedestrians super disruptive! The problem is the close proximity of the driveways. Intersections and alleys are pretty rare on the street a driveway would double the amount of conflict points in a given block. Not to mention driveways can suck for strollers and wheelchairs with the uneven pavement!
I already mentioned the recently renovated McDs near me. It used to have 4 or 5 drive ways, and there were incidents of car and walker/biker conflicts. That's why the activists came out in full force to impact the design. What was left was 2 narrower driveways and a design that caused cars to slow down as exiting the driveway.
I think if you are going to have a drive-thru in a walkable spot, you should do some traffic calming. Though I don't understand why a drive-thru would be on the table in the first place in a walkable area. It is way out of "scale."
I disagree about biking being "exclusive." Driving is generally pretty "classist." Bike are cheap and affordable to more people. While there are many forms of disabilities, many mean you can't drive your own private car....and that is a whole separate topic.
I would be happy to talk about drive throughs. nei as the mod said the conversation had changed. Isn't that interesting? I don't really want to talk about "classism". If someone wants to discuss that, I suggest they start a new thread.
I find drive throughs in areas busy with pedestrians super disruptive! The problem is the close proximity of the driveways. Intersections and alleys are pretty rare on the street a driveway would double the amount of conflict points in a given block. Not to mention driveways can suck for strollers and wheelchairs with the uneven pavement!
I already mentioned the recently renovated McDs near me. It used to have 4 or 5 drive ways, and there were incidents of car and walker/biker conflicts. That's why the activists came out in full force to impact the design. What was left was 2 narrower driveways and a design that caused cars to slow down as exiting the driveway.
I think if you are going to have a drive-thru in a walkable spot, you should do some traffic calming. Though I don't understand why a drive-thru would be on the table in the first place in a walkable area. It is way out of "scale."
I disagree about biking being "exclusive." Driving is generally pretty "classist." Bike are cheap and affordable to more people. While there are many forms of disabilities, many mean you can't drive your own private car....and that is a whole separate topic.
What do you mean "Intersections and alleys are pretty rare on the street". Not in my town. Here is a map of downtown Louisville, CO: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lo...4d-105.1319296
Note the brown area along Main Street. That is the downtown area, from about South St. to Elm St. Note that there are several intersections. The alleys don't show on the regular street map, but there is one between Main and Front, from Walnut to Elm, shown on the Google Earth map (second link). In fact, the drive up library book drop off is located on the alley side. For another fact, the library was originally built with no drive-up book drop off, but there was so much public sentiment to have one that they added it. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lo...4d-105.1319296 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lo...4d-105.1319296
What do you mean "Intersections and alleys are pretty rare on the street". Not in my town. Here is a map of downtown Louisville, CO: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lo...4d-105.1319296
Note the brown area along Main Street. That is the downtown area, from about South St. to Elm St. Note that there are several intersections. The alleys don't show on the regular street map, but there is one between Main and Front, from Walnut to Elm, shown on the Google Earth map (second link). In fact, the drive up library book drop off is located on the alley side. For another fact, the library was originally built with no drive-up book drop off, but there was so much public sentiment to have one that they added it. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lo...4d-105.1319296 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lo...4d-105.1319296
Interesting. We don't really have drive up library book drop off. There used to be one for my library, but now that I think about it, it is too far in on the sidewalk to actually drive up. You have to park for all of ours. The old library was adjacent to a bank and a commute bus stop. It is a weird bank, no drive through, but two narrow driveways. It is on a corner, so the cars come out on a different street. It looks like your downtown area has a lot of driveways and "interruptions." You have to be pretty aware because those look like busy driveways.
In my hood there are some driveways but many are not that busy. There are some I have never seen a car leave at all. In SF there are lots of alleys but many are just loading docks. Or no where you would need to walk. I work in a car oriented area with lots of driveways. And busy streets. It is a terrible walking experience and one of the most dangerous parts of the city. People drive really fast!
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