Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-30-2017, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Land of the Free
6,580 posts, read 6,634,537 times
Reputation: 7410

Advertisements

One of the oddities of Dallas, Atlanta, and Charlotte is that downtown isn't on the river. All are transport hubs that started as railroad hubs, so they never depended on their rivers as much as older cities.

But it seems that one of the successes of downtown Austin is that it's on the river, and moreover, there's no highway blocking access to the river, so the arty/electic South Congress neighborhood is well connected to downtown. Austin now seems to have far more DT pedestrian traffic (not just 6th street nightlife like 10-20 years ago), and at both day and night, than the bigger sunbelt downtowns.

Tampa would seem to have a similar opportunity with the University of Tampa on the west side of the freeway, and linked by the pedestrian-friendly Kennedy Blvd bridge. But Tampa doesn't have Austin's economy, and the willingness to live in the 40 story condos that are a big part of Austin's DT might be far tougher when the beach is just a few miles away. Tampa's metro is also way less educated than Austin's.

So it's interesting to ask then how much of Austin's success is urban layout vs. the people. Tampa is laid out sensibly enough to be more virbrant downtown, but you never hear anyone say "Keep Tampa Weird", nor is there a "Tampa City Limits" music series.

Either way, Austin didn't use to have such a vibrant downtown, and it's surpassing others in the Sunbelt fairly quickly. But wonder how much of what's going on there can be applied to other places.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-30-2017, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Louisiana to Houston to Denver to NOVA
16,506 posts, read 26,193,039 times
Reputation: 13283
I haven't spent much time there during the day but I don't particularly remember downtown Austin bring vibrant outside of the nightlife. I was at the Sheraton on I-35 and 11th St.
I'd include Houston too, Buffalo Bayou in downtown isn't the same as large rivers like the Mississippi or Arkansas or Red River.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-30-2017, 02:53 PM
 
2,134 posts, read 2,106,488 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
One of the oddities of Dallas, Atlanta, and Charlotte is that downtown isn't on the river. All are transport hubs that started as railroad hubs, so they never depended on their rivers as much as older cities.

But it seems that one of the successes of downtown Austin is that it's on the river, and moreover, there's no highway blocking access to the river, so the arty/electic South Congress neighborhood is well connected to downtown. Austin now seems to have far more DT pedestrian traffic (not just 6th street nightlife like 10-20 years ago), and at both day and night, than the bigger sunbelt downtowns.

Tampa would seem to have a similar opportunity with the University of Tampa on the west side of the freeway, and linked by the pedestrian-friendly Kennedy Blvd bridge. But Tampa doesn't have Austin's economy, and the willingness to live in the 40 story condos that are a big part of Austin's DT might be far tougher when the beach is just a few miles away. Tampa's metro is also way less educated than Austin's.

So it's interesting to ask then how much of Austin's success is urban layout vs. the people. Tampa is laid out sensibly enough to be more virbrant downtown, but you never hear anyone say "Keep Tampa Weird", nor is there a "Tampa City Limits" music series.


Either way, Austin didn't use to have such a vibrant downtown, and it's surpassing others in the Sunbelt fairly quickly. But wonder how much of what's going on there can be applied to other places.
Several things I've observed about Downtown Austin vs. Downtown Dallas:

1. Differences in size of their urban cores:
*Austin turns residential suburban much quicker than Dallas. Dallas's urban core actually includes areas
outside of the DT loop, which were all very continuous back in the day. While Uptown and Deep Ellum
aren't technically Downtown, they are part of the urban core. Austin's isn't as extensive. The smaller size makes it easier to
work with.

2. Austin has 2 almost permanent anchors that Downtown Dallas lacks:
*Major Public university and state government, all within walking distance of each other. They are major
employers. These public sector institutions are less susceptible to decline than the private sector,
which dominates Downtown Dallas more. It was the Savings & Loans crisis that practically destroyed DT
Dallas in the 80s/90s.

3. Dallas's economic boom occurred during the "Dark Ages" of urban planning:
*Downtown Dallas was hitting it big during the 50s - 80s, while Austin was still a sleepy college town.
Unfortunately, it was the era where we shoved highways through the urban core, tore down too many
buildings for either parking lots, garages, or fortress like skyscrapers. The availability of flat, cheap land
made it easier for Dallas to outgrow its urban core. If Austin hit it big then, you wouldn't see the same
DT Austin as today.

To sum it up, Downtown Dallas came, went, and is now revitalizing. DT Austin never went through such a life cycle. It's boom occurred at a time when we began to "fix" our poor urban planning mistakes. It had no reason to grow in the 50s. I mean, take a look at DT Dallas in 1939:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24gfyoeR_E. DT Austin of today doesn't even look like that and definitely not back then either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2017, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Land of the Free
6,580 posts, read 6,634,537 times
Reputation: 7410
Nashville's another interesting example. Not as vibrant as Austin, but well above average DT for the South, and it's right on the river without a freeway blocking access to that river. Very similar config to Portland.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2017, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
20,510 posts, read 33,424,351 times
Reputation: 12137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTXman34 View Post
Several things I've observed about Downtown Austin vs. Downtown Dallas:

1. Differences in size of their urban cores:
*Austin turns residential suburban much quicker than Dallas. Dallas's urban core actually includes areas
outside of the DT loop, which were all very continuous back in the day. While Uptown and Deep Ellum
aren't technically Downtown, they are part of the urban core. Austin's isn't as extensive. The smaller size makes it easier to
work with.

2. Austin has 2 almost permanent anchors that Downtown Dallas lacks:
*Major Public university and state government, all within walking distance of each other. They are major
employers. These public sector institutions are less susceptible to decline than the private sector,
which dominates Downtown Dallas more. It was the Savings & Loans crisis that practically destroyed DT
Dallas in the 80s/90s.

3. Dallas's economic boom occurred during the "Dark Ages" of urban planning:
*Downtown Dallas was hitting it big during the 50s - 80s, while Austin was still a sleepy college town.
Unfortunately, it was the era where we shoved highways through the urban core, tore down too many
buildings for either parking lots, garages, or fortress like skyscrapers. The availability of flat, cheap land
made it easier for Dallas to outgrow its urban core. If Austin hit it big then, you wouldn't see the same
DT Austin as today.

To sum it up, Downtown Dallas came, went, and is now revitalizing. DT Austin never went through such a life cycle. It's boom occurred at a time when we began to "fix" our poor urban planning mistakes. It had no reason to grow in the 50s. I mean, take a look at DT Dallas in 1939:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24gfyoeR_E. DT Austin of today doesn't even look like that and definitely not back then either.
1940 Dallas city density was over 7,200. It was on its way if number is pre WW2 development stayed the course. Oh well. It would be the last census Dallas was over 4000 ppsm though there is a chance if the estimates are correct that it will pass that number for the first time in decades.

Last edited by Spade; 05-02-2017 at 03:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2017, 08:03 PM
 
2,134 posts, read 2,106,488 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Nashville's another interesting example. Not as vibrant as Austin, but well above average DT for the South, and it's right on the river without a freeway blocking access to that river. Very similar config to Portland.
Downtown Pittsburgh sort of goes against that argument. It's surrounded by rivers but is not a vibrant nightlife area. The nightlife is found elsewhere in the city. Of course Pittsburgh isn't in the South or a Sunbelt City, but just one example that Downtown isn't the end all be all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2017, 08:06 PM
 
2,134 posts, read 2,106,488 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
1940 Dallas city density was over 7,200. It was on its way if number is pre WW2 development stayed the course. Oh well. It would be the last census Dallas was over 4000 ppsm though there is a chance if the estimates are correct that it will pass that number for the first time in decades.
I can see this happening real soon, if not already.

I also don't see Austin as the poster child of good urban planning. Far from it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2017, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Holly Neighborhood, Austin, Texas
3,982 posts, read 6,717,822 times
Reputation: 2882
For Austin Ladybird lake has a lot to do with this as the loop was completed a few years ago when the boardwalk was put in. This is the number one place to go for a walk/run, plus there are the bats, auditorium shores, Zilker Park/Barton Springs, etc.

Also our mayor made the bold challenge of having 25,000 people living in downtown by 2015 from what was then 5,000. Of course by 2015 only 12,000 were living downtown but the growth of the hotel industry probably made up the difference as far as foot traffic is concerned. I think something happened to this town right around the time the F1 track was put in which was also around the time the recession ended that made anything seem possible. Something to keep in mind that the DT population was going down for decades until the 1990s and is still not at its historic high with all of the high rises that have gone in.

The interstate in Austin is being used, for better or for worse, by neighborhood groups as a bulwark against encroaching redevelopment/gentrification. I guess if anything could demarcate one zoning category from a higher one it would be an interstate. And maybe as a general rule CBDs are hard to expand as Austin has only one little slice added in the last 20 years.

What I find interesting is contrasting Austin to San Antonio. They have a vibrant downtown largely built around the Alamo complex and the Riverwalk. Instead of damming a river to create a lake and loose real estate in the process they used flood control measures to produce a tourist attraction. Quite brilliant.

One of the things I will be keeping an eye on is the removal of DT parking requirements in Austin with one project underway. I would be interested in seeing what other cities are doing with these pioneering developments in hopefully a new transportation era.

And just as a general rule college towns are weirder than non-college towns.

I've been to DT Tampa on a weekend and it seemed very quiet. Looks like Tampa's DT is hemmed in by highways to the north and south.

As far as walkscores Tampa is better overall (49 to 39) but DT Austin edges out DT Tampa 90 to 85. Not sure if true there but seems like many of the older highrises have terrible street interaction that seems to coincide with the Brutalist architecture period. Glad that's over and we now have, among other things, walk up burger places.

Last edited by verybadgnome; 05-03-2017 at 09:46 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2017, 08:27 AM
 
2,134 posts, read 2,106,488 times
Reputation: 2585
Speaking of Walkscore, Downtown Dallas was actually ranked as the most walkable neighborhood in Texas, slightly edging out Downtown Austin:

The 10 Most Walkable Neighborhoods in Texas - Walk Score Blog

It's splitting hairs, but it goes to show that despite Downtown Dallas's reputation as not much of a nightlife destination, it still offers the very basics of what constitutes a "walkable" neighborhood. Bars and restaurants are part of it, but they're not the end all be all. What about a pharmacy? or access to transit?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2017, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
20,510 posts, read 33,424,351 times
Reputation: 12137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTXman34 View Post
Speaking of Walkscore, Downtown Dallas was actually ranked as the most walkable neighborhood in Texas, slightly edging out Downtown Austin:

The 10 Most Walkable Neighborhoods in Texas - Walk Score Blog

It's splitting hairs, but it goes to show that despite Downtown Dallas's reputation as not much of a nightlife destination, it still offers the very basics of what constitutes a "walkable" neighborhood. Bars and restaurants are part of it, but they're not the end all be all. What about a pharmacy? or access to transit?
I can see Downtown Houston not only appearing in this list in the not to distant future but rising fast to one of the top when the new apartments and condos are finished and occupied with people in them. I say that because with more mass of people comes more retail.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:52 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top