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"That landlord is the Kensington and Chelsea Tenants Management Organisation (KCTMO), a for-profit company in charge of refurbishment and maintenance of the building. The building is owned by the local borough of Kensington and Chelsea—London’s wealthiest borough. In a trend now typical across London, the borough contracted KCTMO to refurbish the tower, in part to increase the number of apartments available for private rent or sale. That work left the tower with just one staircase and exit—an exit that the management company has failed to keep clear. Protests about the safety of the people living in the tower fell on deaf ears."
For profit management of a publicly-owned entity is a bigger factor than the density of the building.
the exterior tiles would not be permitted in the US and Germany; not sure about Canadian regulations. No sprinklers would generally not be to code here either.
Met all safety codes for London. You can't put the two together equally. If they had met the safety codes of jurisdictions that have better codes, then the tragedy may have turned out differently.
You asked what density advocates think. My answer is the same. Improve codes in jurisdictions where they are lacking.
Fire safety isn't about density per se. Thousands die in house fires every year around the world. You are only hearing about this story because A) there was a large number of deaths
B) It took place in an internationally important city
C) Media salivated over the amount of photos and videos taken
How many suburban home fire deaths have occurred in the US in the last year? Are you questioning suburban advocates on what they think of suburbia now? Or are you questioning fire codes in houses?
Met all safety codes for London. You can't put the two together equally. If they had met the safety codes of jurisdictions that have better codes, then the tragedy may have turned out differently.
?? codes/statutes/etc. are inherently jurisdictional. Should the building also have been built pursuant to earthquake-related standards, mudslide/land movement codes, subsidence codes, in all other jurisdictions? Maybe they should rely on their own codes appropriate for their geographical location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci
You asked what density advocates think. My answer is the same. Improve codes in jurisdictions where they are lacking.
Ah, so you are a density advocate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci
Fire safety isn't about density per se. Thousands die in house fires every year around the world.
Diversionary tactic?
There are also far more people in the aggregate that live in houses than in residential towers.
A single house fire does not kill 30+ people.
Density puts all others at risk when only a few are problematic. One of the many cons of density.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci
You are only hearing about this story because A) there was a large number of deaths
B) It took place in an internationally important city
C) Media salivated over the amount of photos and videos taken
...and other jurisdictions fearful of protecting their housing markets are quick to generate propaganda such as "it can't happen here" or "it is unlikely to happen here" in an effort to protect occupancy rates and condo sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci
How many suburban home fire deaths have occurred in the US in the last year? Are you questioning suburban advocates on what they think of suburbia now? Or are you questioning fire codes in houses?
Who knows but one difference is that the fire tends to be contained to the house where it originated. In higher density housing, the more you cram together the closer you are to prospective originators and the end result of their acts, omissions, or accidents because you decided to live in connected/attached living units.
NFPA estimates 1 out of every 320 households per year has a fire. The term "households" includes ALL types of living units. When you put more households in the same building, there is a greater than 1/320 probability of a fire in the building - because there are more households. There will be more deaths in the aggregate from detached home fires simply because there are far more detached housing units than there are attached households.
NFPA estimates 1 out of every 320 households per year has a fire. The term "households" includes ALL types of living units. When you put more households in the same building, there is a greater than 1/320 probability of a fire in the building - because there are more households.
It'd be useful to compare actual incident rate by building type
Quote:
There will be more deaths in the aggregate from detached home fires simply because there are far more detached housing units than there are attached households.
that's not true; detached housing units make up about 60% of housing units. Though of course, many of the attached households aren't in high rise but in rowhomes or townhomes or just small buildings.
?? Codes/statutes/etc. Are inherently jurisdictional. Should the building also have been built pursuant to earthquake-related standards, mudslide/land movement codes, subsidence codes, in all other jurisdictions? Maybe they should rely on their own codes appropriate for their geographical location.
did i say all jurisdictions should have the same codes? No. Specific threats like earthquakes are of course geographical. Fires...not so much.
ah, so you are a density advocate?
yes.
Diversionary tactic?
There are also far more people in the aggregate that live in houses than in residential towers.
A single house fire does not kill 30+ people.
Density puts all others at risk when only a few are problematic. One of the many cons of density.
diversion? Density doesn't have to equal dangerous living if the codes are high enough. I heard that there weren't even any fire alarms in the london building? My building has fire alarms, smoke detectors, emergency communication speakers in all suites, two fire exit staircases that are separately ventilated form the hallways, and construction to contain fires to a small area.
I feel safe.
...and other jurisdictions fearful of protecting their housing markets are quick to generate propaganda such as "it can't happen here" or "it is unlikely to happen here" in an effort to protect occupancy rates and condo sales.
proof? It is simply absurd.
who knows but one difference is that the fire tends to be contained to the house where it originated. In higher density housing, the more you cram together the closer you are to prospective originators and the end result of their acts, omissions, or accidents because you decided to live in connected/attached living units.
Nfpa estimates 1 out of every 320 households per year has a fire. The term "households" includes all types of living units. When you put more households in the same building, there is a greater than 1/320 probability of a fire in the building - because there are more households. There will be more deaths in the aggregate from detached home fires simply because there are far more detached housing units than there are attached households.
I haven't listened to the story, yet. (at work) But, as I said earlier, I suspect that the UK/London will be taking a close look at their building codes, to make sure something like this is less likely to happen in the future.
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Probably Arson
