Urban Sprawl---A Blessing or a Curse? (New York, Washington, metro, suburban)

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by metroplex2003

SOrry Pittnurse, I keep forgetting you're in Northern Colorado.
And yes, bigger does not always equate to better, though it's odd for me to say that being from Texas. But having more space is good for some aspects. I think that's why america suburbanized itself....but also bigger homes do add property value and increased property tax values equates to better public schools.

folks.

you were talking pollution, and asthma, etc.. have you stopped to think that maybe some of the earlier points by some of us had to do with the possibility that suburbia results in even MORE driving, so even MORE emissions of things hard on the respiratory system, e.g.? the point before was not that the air is squeaky clean in the city, but that the air is getting all the worse by all the driving, construction, etc. having to do with suburbia.

property values? the argument by so many here is that they move to suburbia because it's CHEAPER there (so, property taxes may not necessarily be HIGHER, and so the schools not necessarily better because of that, right? people feel the need (want) for more cars, more tvs, bigger houses, swimming pools, etc., and so they go to the burbs where it tends to be cheaper to have all that, right? the burbs are facilitated by and for the automobile, to a significant extent. we see that historically, we see that now, right?

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by hello-world

folks.

you were talking pollution, and asthma, etc.. have you stopped to think that maybe some of the earlier points by some of us had to do with the possibility that suburbia results in even MORE driving, so even MORE emissions of things hard on the respiratory system, e.g.? the point before was not that the air is squeaky clean in the city, but that the air is getting all the worse by all the driving, construction, etc. having to do with suburbia.

property values? the argument by so many here is that they move to suburbia because it's CHEAPER there (so, property taxes may not necessarily be HIGHER, and so the schools not necessarily better because of that, right? people feel the need (want) for more cars, more tvs, bigger houses, swimming pools, etc., and so they go to the burbs where it tends to be cheaper to have all that, right? the burbs are facilitated by and for the automobile, to a significant extent. we see that historically, we see that now, right?

Re: schools, you can look up stats on most states' dept of education websites and find the school report cards. "Good" schools (definition has been argued on this forum and other places) are generally in areas of higher socio-economic status, be that a very 'hip' area of a city or a tony suburb. There is a documented higher rate of asthma in inner-city kids. There is no known explanation for this, though many hypotheses. People may actually drive fewer miles in the 'burbs to get to their local grocery store, dr's office, even work. I know that is true for me vs my daughter who lives in Denver. Suburb to suburb public transportation is fairly good here, especially in Boulder County (which is essentially a suburb whether the city leaders will admit it or not).

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

Re: schools, you can look up stats on most states' dept of education websites and find the school report cards. "Good" schools (definition has been argued on this forum and other places) are generally in areas of higher socio-economic status, be that a very 'hip' area of a city or a tony suburb. There is a documented higher rate of asthma in inner-city kids. There is no known explanation for this, though many hypotheses. People may actually drive fewer miles in the 'burbs to get to their local grocery store, dr's office, even work. I know that is true for me vs my daughter who lives in Denver. Suburb to suburb public transportation is fairly good here, especially in Boulder County (which is essentially a suburb whether the city leaders will admit it or not).

My references to allergy stem from rural vs. urban. Not suburban vs. urban.
THere have been several documented studies that show that rural kids tend to have a better prepped immune system than urban kids. They call it the clean hygiene hypothesis. This stems from the fact that urban kids in general tend to stay indoors more than rural kids, thereby changing their predominance of TH1 vs. TH2 mediated pathways. Urban kids that grow up indoors may not have as much exposure to antigens as rural kiddos. AS a result, they are more prone to allergies (aka Asthma). However, more studies need to be done as the precise immunologic mechanisms have yet to be isolated. But work continues to be done on this.

Now as for commutes, I agree, people must realize that suburbanites have the convenience of local strip malls nearby that maybe within 5-10 min. of their location. Commutes to their neighborhood schools are relatively short too...especially in developed suburbanized areas.

[Katiana]

metroplex:

My references to allergy stem from rural vs. urban. Not suburban vs. urban.

You must be a basic researcher. We practitioners know that inner-city kids have more asthma than any others, urban non inner-city, suburban, or rural. There seems to be no known reason yet.

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

metroplex:

You must be a basic researcher. We practitioners know that inner-city kids have more asthma than any others, urban non inner-city, suburban, or rural. There seems to be no known reason yet.

Nope, a clinician...basic research is not my cup of tea...patients only...but immunology is important to know.

Yes, inner city kids do...that's the point I was trying to make...but there is extensive research going into why this is...and T cells play a role in it. You can find articles in most Allergy and Immunology Journals if you are interested....now of course there is still much more research that needs to be done....but I'm not disagreeing with you if that is what you're thinking. Yes, inner city kids have more asthma...but I was trying to offer up an explanation as to why this is. And the current hypothesis out there that does have some research to back it up is that kids who are exposed early to antigens in life tend to have less allergy...it's the rural vs. urban argument. And there is data that rural kids tend to fare better allergy wise than people who grew up in major metropolitan areas...or if you want to say....inner city...b/c lots of the comparisons have been made to inner city children...but in all fairness to extrapolate...I am will to bet that rural kids also do better than suburban kids out of societal factors of living in a major MSA vs. a small farm town community in Indiana or Iowa. IT's b/c rural kids spend more time outdoors in very antigen rich environments vs. indoors, which is a more controlled setting that is "clean" .
Inner city kids count as "urban".
Kids in the suburbs also fall into this category...but again, they probably have more antigen exposure than inner city kids early in life...thus in theory less asthma....



Now having said all that, the other arguments that people who are into the environment will say is that inner city kids have to deal with air pollutants created by exhaust emissions, etc. There is less evidence in terms of immune prepping for this, but it's still a hypothesis that is worth pursuing.


But nevertheless...urban sprawl is part of what I call American culture. We have different preferences than our European allies. And when one thinks about it, microeconomics boils down to one word: preferences. I do not think it's a bad thing to have suburbs...I think there's a lot of convenience tagged onto it. And the anti-suburbanites will argue, everything is homogenous...same chain stores, same big boxes, same restaurants...but I tend to disagree that this is entirely bad...I think we as American suburbanites for the most part demand this....we like familiarity, we like name brands, we like brands that we can trust, we are the country of marketing. Now I also like mom and pop's too....I support both. I demand that both co-exist. But again that's my preference. Overall, I do favor suburbs over urban cores...mainly b/c it's more peaceful out in the suburbs and there on average is more space out there...but I do like to take advantage of big city amenities...professional sports, nice restaurants that are more local, etc. So there is a role for both in my world of preferences.

[Katiana]

Well, I have read that the theory you are discussing is not entirely accepted b/c it is well known that the inner city kids are exposed to a lot of antigens as their environments aren't always the cleanest.

As for sprawl, I do not think the suburbs are completely homogenous. In a strip mall near me, there is a private TV repair shop, a shoe repair shop, a private optician, and a couple private restaurants. Plus, of course, a Safeway, a Walgreens, a Curves exercise center and a bank. Another strip mall down the road a bit has Hobby Lobby, Big Lots, a King Sooper's (Kroger's) grocery store and a local coffee shop. Just two examples, but still, proof it's not all Starbuck's, Lenscrafters and McDonald's. I too like the space and the access to the city's cultural and sporting events.

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

Well, I have read that the theory you are discussing is not entirely accepted b/c it is well known that the inner city kids are exposed to a lot of antigens as their environments aren't always the cleanest.

As for sprawl, I do not think the suburbs are completely homogenous. In a strip mall near me, there is a private TV repair shop, a shoe repair shop, a private optician, and a couple private restaurants. Plus, of course, a Safeway, a Walgreens, a Curves exercise center and a bank. Another strip mall down the road a bit has Hobby Lobby, Big Lots, a King Sooper's (Kroger's) grocery store and a local coffee shop. Just two examples, but still, proof it's not all Starbuck's, Lenscrafters and McDonald's. I too like the space and the access to the city's cultural and sporting events.

Actually Walgreens, Safeway, Curves, they're all chains. They just occupy different strip malls...but once again, it's generalizations. Not to say there are absolutely no mom and pops in strip malls. Kroger is a national grocery store chain as well. There are several scattered across the states. But in my suburb there is a Krogers also, in fact, we have a TJMAxx (chain), Barnes and Noble (chain), Target (chain) Gap (chain), etc. There is a local nail salon and dental office (mom and pops). But these are pretty much what suburban America is all about. Lots of chain stores that you find in a lot of other American city suburbs. And that's fine. I'm all for it...brand name recognition...quality brands you can trust. IT's great. I'm not comparing strip malls within suburbs...I"m comparing suburbs vs other suburbs.

As for the clean hygiene hypothesis, I also mentioned the other hypothesis on the table as well...once again, it's just offering explanations to why children in urbanized areas develop asthma more readily. We are making discoveries everyday a/b immunologic pathways that can lead to a good explanation of all this, but again, one thing is clear is that T helpers clearly play a role. There is evidence to back that up.

I tend to favor the clean hygiene just from personal observation as I work in both county health care settings (ie inner city people) as well as private.
However, I also mentioned the other hypothesis on the table which you mentioned, but there's just not as much evidence for the latter of the two, especially when there are lots of Th cell assays pointing the other direction.

But after doing this for years, it's still the same mgmt....but knowing the pathophysiology will help for the future as it may provide for more drug targets than just blocking Histamines and IgE antibodies.

Now please dont get the wrong impression, I'm not trying to disagree with you here or try to argue just to argue...I"m merely trying to put out a few hypothesis that are out there that may help us to better understand why the observation that inner city kids get asthma in greater frequencies. There is no argument there...but getting to the root of the trigger is important in allergy treatment modality...and that is what we need to focus on...and getting a better understanding of why we observe the phenomenon we are seeing in inflammatory cell distribution is important...and that maybe related to antigen priming early on in life....which leads to the differences in people's immune systems later in life. OF course, genetics has a component as well...not denying that by any means...but it's established that genetics in combo with environment is why we have much pathology of the immune system...be it systemic autoimmune disease vs. localized.

But getting back on topic again, sprawl has also resulted from businesses as well. It is well established under many urban economic studies that it is oftentimes more cost effective per sq. ft. for corporations to build outward rather than upward. It's a more efficient campus with low to mid rise buildings with more sq. ft. per floor. AS a result, several corporations have moved out to the suburbs for their corporate headquarter relocation. As a result, there is a market of consumers that have decided to live closer to work in the suburbs in addition to people having preferences for the suburbs. Corporate hq relocations have also contributed to the urban sprawl of america...but again, is it a bad thing? Not convinced of that. I'm not pro or anti sprawl, I do see the advantages of both.

[Katiana]

Actually Walgreens, Safeway, Curves, they're all chains.

Well, yes, I am well aware of that. My point was that the suburban shopping is not all chain, as some like to claim, not all homogenized to the point of boring. I like the variety at the larger grocery chains. I have shopped small grocery stores and they don't usually carry as many brands, etc. I like the 'mom and pop' places, too. I'm not convinced that they're always better. Sometimes they are more expensive due to higher operating costs.

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

Well, yes, I am well aware of that. My point was that the suburban shopping is not all chain, as some like to claim, not all homogenized to the point of boring. I like the variety at the larger grocery chains. I have shopped small grocery stores and they don't usually carry as many brands, etc. I like the 'mom and pop' places, too. I'm not convinced that they're always better. Sometimes they are more expensive due to higher operating costs.

Exactly. I completely agree with everything you have said...but, I was merely reflecting the different views out there...the problem with generalizations is that it subjects oneself to several exceptions. Having said that, I do tend to support both, but even larger grocery store chains are still feeling the pinch from big boxes like super walmart and to a certain extent super Target. I'm not entirely opposed to either. There are stuff I can get a Kroger that Super Walmart would not sell due to its lack of cost effectiveness from an efficiency standpoint.

As for mom and pops...the mom and pop grocers are fading, and the ones that do remain tend to be located in urban cores where there is a very thin shield from the big boxes (Walmart is moving in cautiously)....
Now in terms of homogeneity...it refers more to suburbs vs. suburbs analysis...and yes there are probably some mom and pops that make suburbs unique, but lots of the stores in the burbs across American and in suburban malls tend to carry the same brands or stores...pretty much all malls in america have gap, etc....or most suburbs will contain a strip mall that contains some kind of linen store (Linen and THings vs. Bed, Bath, and Beyond), a target or walmart...a grocer chain, a blockbuster, etc.
Now b/c there are so many brand names suburbs can support given demographics, etc, there are strip malls in suburbs that carry more service industry...such as nail salon, dentist office, dry cleaning is popular...and manhy of these will be local owners...or even optometry office....heck, now FP's are getting into the strip mall game...and doing well at running walk in clinics plus continuity of care clinic....due to visibility. Urgent care tends to operate free standing structures, but I've seen some in strip malls as well. So mom and pops do exist...I grant you that...but overall homogeneity, which i guess is subjective from a personal viewpoint, does exist. But I'm not against it as many of my colleagues who crave and like to live in the city...otherwise I wouldnt be out here...b/c personally I find it to be convenient to go literally 2 min. from my house to the nearest strip mall which contains a Kroger, B & N, Target, Cinema, etc. City dwellers will say well i can just leave my high rise condo and go walking 2 min. But then again, they tend to pay more for their goods and services in the city...

[Katiana]

Even the malls in the cities, such as Cherry Creek and 16th St. in Denver have a lot of national chains and department stores. And virtually every clothing department, from Kohl's to Nordstrom's, carries at least some of the same brands. That is what some of the urbanists need to keep in mind; a tool bought at Sear's in Cherry Creek is the same tool you can buy at a suburban Sears.