Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Here is a little report about Boomers, and how they are getting more conservative with age.
You get the point. And we boomers do have more money than others who are working. We can pay off our credit cards every month. But we also tend not to run up huge CC bills every month, either.
I can't speak for the Millenials, who are going to end up even poorer than us but don't act like it, but i consider myself quite fiscally conservative. I have zero debt except for my house payment and live far below my means. I used to teach classes on how to live frugally, budget wisely, and cook inexpensive food from scratch. No car payment--I do own a car, but it is 20 years old and I drive it seldom enough that I fill the tank maybe once a month. No gym membership--I walk most places, which gives better exercise than the treadmill at the gym. I walk to the farmer's market and garden in my tiny backyard, and cook from scratch, so I eat pretty gourmet on a ramen budget.
All of the above were skills I learned as a post-collegiate "slacker" in the early 1990s, during the last recession, and they are serving me pretty well during this one. Generally, the same frugal habits are also the basis of my ideas about urban living--in the long run, it's an economically frugal, inherently sustainable, and personally healthy approach.
Quote:
The post war era turned our country from a nation of renters to a nation of homeowners, especially in the urban areas. Actually, a number of burbs around my hometown had bus service. My former in-laws lived in a suburb of Chicago and my fil took the train to work. Chicago actually has long had public transportation out to the suburbs, including the ones that were "newer" at the time (early 70s). Again, assumptions that aren't true in every case.
We weren't inordinately a nation of renters before World War II, and while ownership percentage has risen, it has resulted in a dangerous lack of mobility that leaves people stuck in their homes during economic downturns, unable to relocate to find jobs. Home ownership is a philosophical ideal that is far from being a universal good or a guarantee of security--it is another holdover from Progressive Era social engineering. And the same government programs that turned us into a nation of homeowners also turned us into a nation of debtors.
Quote:
I'm not sure I needed the history lesson; my hometown was actually itself a suburb (sort of) of Pittsburgh and I know all about the transformation from mill town to office parks. Likewise, Denver has few factories in town any more. It is hip in both Pittsburgh and Denver to live in some loft conversion. I have been to Denver in the recent past, and actually go there frequently.
I said my community was an old coal mining town. It's both a suburb to Denver and Boulder, and a neat little town at the same time. It's not been "swallowed up", either.
Too many assumptions here!
If that is the case, you should realize that when we're talking about return to the cities, we aren't talking about returning to exactly the cities where your brother was tied to the porch. Return to a more urban and walkable way of life also means solving the problems that chased people out of cities in the first place. And if your suburb is already a walkable, mixed-use place, you have nothing to fear by that change, because your neighborhood is an example of what those New Urbanists (most of whose philosophical leaders are Boomers, btw) are talking about.
I can't speak for the Millenials, who are going to end up even poorer than us but don't act like it, but i consider myself quite fiscally conservative. I have zero debt except for my house payment and live far below my means. I used to teach classes on how to live frugally, budget wisely, and cook inexpensive food from scratch. No car payment--I do own a car, but it is 20 years old and I drive it seldom enough that I fill the tank maybe once a month. No gym membership--I walk most places, which gives better exercise than the treadmill at the gym. I walk to the farmer's market and garden in my tiny backyard, and cook from scratch, so I eat pretty gourmet on a ramen budget.
All of the above were skills I learned as a post-collegiate "slacker" in the early 1990s, during the last recession, and they are serving me pretty well during this one. Generally, the same frugal habits are also the basis of my ideas about urban living--in the long run, it's an economically frugal, inherently sustainable, and personally healthy approach.
We weren't inordinately a nation of renters before World War II, and while ownership percentage has risen, it has resulted in a dangerous lack of mobility that leaves people stuck in their homes during economic downturns, unable to relocate to find jobs. Home ownership is a philosophical ideal that is far from being a universal good or a guarantee of security--it is another holdover from Progressive Era social engineering. And the same government programs that turned us into a nation of homeowners also turned us into a nation of debtors.
You'd never guess that from reading CD, where there are lots of threads on the city forums by/about people wanting to relocate, often thousands of miles. I'd like to see a cite for that!
Quote:
If that is the case, you should realize that when we're talking about return to the cities, we aren't talking about returning to exactly the cities where your brother was tied to the porch. Return to a more urban and walkable way of life also means solving the problems that chased people out of cities in the first place. And if your suburb is already a walkable, mixed-use place, you have nothing to fear by that change, because your neighborhood is an example of what those New Urbanists (most of whose philosophical leaders are Boomers, btw) are talking about.
When did I say I was afraid of anything like that? I have already said I don't think much of New Urbanism. The NU projects in metro Denver are almost all in the suburbs (except for Stapelton, the old airport), are surrounded by tract housing, and don't seem to attract a lot of business, other than coffee shops, yoga studios, day care centers, dentist offices and the like. People still have to leave the bubble to go to work, for the most part. Stapleton is "suburbia in the city", with many residents being parents of young children; ditto Bradburn (although Bradburn is suburbia in the suburbs).
You'd never guess that from reading CD, where there are lots of threads on the city forums by/about people wanting to relocate, often thousands of miles. I'd like to see a cite for that!
When did I say I was afraid of anything like that? I have already said I don't think much of New Urbanism. The NU projects in metro Denver are almost all in the suburbs (except for Stapelton, the old airport), are surrounded by tract housing, and don't seem to attract a lot of business, other than coffee shops, yoga studios, day care centers, dentist offices and the like. People still have to leave the bubble to go to work, for the most part. Stapleton is "suburbia in the city", with many residents being parents of young children; ditto Bradburn (although Bradburn is suburbia in the suburbs).
I'm not suggesting that nobody ever moves, but the current mortgage crisis has resulted in a lot of people who are "upside-down" on their homes, and thus unable to move. Of course, lots of people who got foreclosed are moving, but they aren't homeowners anymore.
We are of a mind about greenfield NU projects--my own interest is in rebuilding old streetcar suburbs and urban cores, in my mind a far more inherently sustainable strategy. The "New Urbanist" greenfield experiments where I live have been horrible failures, primarily because instead of building transit first, they build the neighborhood first and then decide not to build transit because traffic is already horrible and there is no longer room for light rail on their impacted main business streets. And, of course, they are not practical for real walkable "20 minute neighborhood" living, unlike central cities and those office towers, not to mention the occasional industrial job (that railroad corridor where I live still has a ceramic tile manufacturing plant, a phone company truck terminal, and a couple of hardware warehouses on it.) The success stories are the infill projects that have popped up in former industrial areas or interstices next to transit lines--relatively small projects, but enough small infill projects can make a big difference.
The economy is currently in a huge mess, period. I don't think the current state of the economy typifies what happens in normal times. One of my neighbors who has been out of work for two years says he'd have to think very hard about relocating, due to the possiblity he would get laid off in the new location. This is a person who has moved about 4 times for jobs, from Arizona to Pennsylvania.
Younger couples moving back into the city is a good thing. It brings culture, vibrancy, and life back to decaying urban centers. I moved away from St. Louis when it was starting... and moved to Seattle where it never really stopped.
I can see the benefits of living downtown, like everything being within walking or bus/metro/train distance. But I can also see the detractions - higher cost of living OR settling for less space, and higher crime.
I think the bigger driver for this trend is people are TIRED of waiting endlessly in their cars in rush hour traffic jams. What's the solution to far-flung residences away from your job? Don't live there. I know I simply will NOT live anywhere I would have to drive with traffic for more than a mile or two.
Don't work at an airport then.. most of them are usually surrounded by very undesireable areas.
It's not new, it's because they're young, like me
After that, they will come back to suburbs to raise their families.
normal trends.
At no time has the subburbs grown like it did in the 50's.Inductrialization dod not mean that people actaully wanted to move to the urban areas.Eben the rich that could affors it has rural areas they fled to when not doing businesss.Urban crowding is just not what most choose if they have the chance.
Fortunately, cities don't look like they did in Jacob Riis' day. They have gotten quite a bit nicer since then--so much so that people are moving to them by choice. As for the suburbs, well, some are doing okay, but others just aren't aging well at all.
Fortunately, cities don't look like they did in Jacob Riis' day. They have gotten quite a bit nicer since then--so much so that people are moving to them by choice. As for the suburbs, well, some are doing okay, but others just aren't aging well at all.
Good points.
Here downtown living requires a certain affluence. There's talk about and apparent demand for more affordable housing downtown but difficult to find a way to do actually do it.
And any housing requires upkeep and maintenance and it turns out that is not an inexpensive endeavor over the long haul as well as requiring a certain level of commitment and fortitude. Add in some recession and you have areas that are definitely looking ragged.
Europe has a "sustainable" model? Tell that to the Greeks, the Irish, and the Icelanders. The whole European welfare-state model is going to go bust.
And American suburbs are not nearly as "cookie-cutter" or homogenous as people are saying. They're becoming a lot more diverse. Have you ever been to the Northern Virginia suburbs? Filled with Indians, Koreans, and Muslims moving in. Same with places in California, New Jersey, etc.
Personally I'm not a fan of either the city or the burbs, I prefer the country, but I find it obnoxious how condescending city people are to suburbanites.
Get otuside the business district of London and say that. Its the same woreld over i urban big xcities which is why so mnay flee. Young people that are single or teh rich who have secured;high rise apartments in teh high rent district is another thing. But een most of those have homes outside the urabn areas to escape to.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
