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Old 08-28-2008, 12:47 AM
 
34 posts, read 157,433 times
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So...you are white and you are LDS. You are part of the majority. Does having a wife who may or may not appear to be a minority give you any insight into the effects of racism? When people look at you, do they know you are half-Jewish and treat you differently? Of course not. You'd might as well tell me about your friend's wife's stylist's uncle who once had something happen to his sister.

The question is simply this...do you think Utah is diverse? I don't and I backed up my opinion with statistics (and try as you might, those numbers do not lie). You, for whatever reason, question those statistics, my interpretation of those statistics, and even my "nefarious" use of those statistics. To what end? You have already said that you don't think Utah is diverse. So what point are you trying to make? Do you have any EVIDENCE to contradict me, or do you just have personal anecdotes?

You've expended quite a bit of energy opposing my thesis but haven't backed your argument up with anything other than personal experiences. You are using a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc... because your wife in Utah is half-Polynesian, and because she has not had a problem with racism, therefore there is not a problem with racism in Utah...(same for your father-in-law). It is irrelevant...the only thing that would suggest is that your family has not had a problem with racism. But I would bet nobody would even consider you minorities! And the sample size upon which you base your contention is...2.

If you want to talk about personal experiences, then let's talk about them. Have you had your son teased and called "*****" in school? Has he come home after school crying because he was shunned by everyone and not allowed to play with them? How about patients refusing to shake your hand when you introduce yourself, and then changing doctors because of the way you look? Are people behind you in line typically served before you? How about neighbors who pretend not to see you and duck into their garages lest they actually have to talk to you? I had gotten one traffic ticket in my life until I moved here. In the nine months I have been here, I have been pulled over five times...I got a ticket for going 34 mph in a 30 mph zone and was forced to go to traffic school!

I would like the original poster to reap the benefit of my experiences as a minority living in Utah. Perhaps you feel that such opinions should not be heard? I suppose they call this area Happy Valley for a reason...everything is just hunky-dory! After having lived in so many places then, you can't possibly think that Utah is diverse (which was the original point), can you? So then why are we wasting so much time on something that we agree on?

 
Old 08-28-2008, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Utah
1,458 posts, read 4,123,473 times
Reputation: 1548
(I think I posted here about this once awhile back?)

We were shopping at the WalMart...on 1300S?...as opposed to the one in N Davis where we often go. When we left, my daughter (13), said that it was weird being the only white/American people there. Although, I do think there may have been another 2 or 3 of us there. She was right, is WAS weird!, because it is Utah.

Isn't W Valley where there are all of those african markets, Vietnamese markets, hispanic markets/ restaurants, the Ethiopian restaurant, native American shops, and such, along Redwood Rd??

Yes, Utah is white. Way white. It is a big state. However, close to SLC it becomes more diverse. Some of the areas surrounding it are more minority than caucasian. Areas close to the highway, and west of the highway, like WVC and Rose Park. Then in Davis Co is Hill AFB, where there are lots of military families which reflect family make-up typical of Anywhere, USA. It would be very easy to go to Utah and land in a mostly-white/American neighborhood if you weren't looking for diversity. But it IS there. Go to Liberty Park. Often when we do, my kids are some of the only white kids there.

That is in regards to diversity. As far as racism goes, racism is everywhere. In some states/regions it may be more overt than others. When I recently went back east to a VERY diverse area I used to live it, the open racism was shocking to me. My own experience here in utah has shown people here to be very accepting. Yes I am white. I am not LDS. I will have a child soon of another race. So it is something I am very sensitive to myself.
 
Old 08-28-2008, 01:00 AM
 
Location: Utah
1,458 posts, read 4,123,473 times
Reputation: 1548
Quote:
If you want to talk about personal experiences, then let's talk about them. Have you had your son teased and called "*****" in school? Has he come home after school crying because he was shunned by everyone and not allowed to play with them? How about patients refusing to shake your hand when you introduce yourself, and then changing doctors because of the way you look? Are people behind you in line typically served before you? How about neighbors who pretend not to see you and duck into their garages lest they actually have to talk to you? I had gotten one traffic ticket in my life until I moved here. In the nine months I have been here, I have been pulled over five times...I got a ticket for going 34 mph in a 30 mph zone and was forced to go to traffic school!
Wow, that sounds almost (almost) identical to my experience moving to a southern state from NY... ya know, as a "yankee".
 
Old 08-28-2008, 07:33 AM
 
1,821 posts, read 7,719,788 times
Reputation: 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by faststeel View Post
So...you are white and you are LDS. You are part of the majority. Does having a wife who may or may not appear to be a minority give you any insight into the effects of racism? When people look at you, do they know you are half-Jewish and treat you differently? Of course not. You'd might as well tell me about your friend's wife's stylist's uncle who once had something happen to his sister.

The question is simply this...do you think Utah is diverse? I don't and I backed up my opinion with statistics (and try as you might, those numbers do not lie). You, for whatever reason, question those statistics, my interpretation of those statistics, and even my "nefarious" use of those statistics. To what end? You have already said that you don't think Utah is diverse. So what point are you trying to make? Do you have any EVIDENCE to contradict me, or do you just have personal anecdotes?

You've expended quite a bit of energy opposing my thesis but haven't backed your argument up with anything other than personal experiences. You are using a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc... because your wife in Utah is half-Polynesian, and because she has not had a problem with racism, therefore there is not a problem with racism in Utah...(same for your father-in-law). It is irrelevant...the only thing that would suggest is that your family has not had a problem with racism. But I would bet nobody would even consider you minorities! And the sample size upon which you base your contention is...2.

If you want to talk about personal experiences, then let's talk about them. Have you had your son teased and called "*****" in school? Has he come home after school crying because he was shunned by everyone and not allowed to play with them? How about patients refusing to shake your hand when you introduce yourself, and then changing doctors because of the way you look? Are people behind you in line typically served before you? How about neighbors who pretend not to see you and duck into their garages lest they actually have to talk to you? I had gotten one traffic ticket in my life until I moved here. In the nine months I have been here, I have been pulled over five times...I got a ticket for going 34 mph in a 30 mph zone and was forced to go to traffic school!

I would like the original poster to reap the benefit of my experiences as a minority living in Utah. Perhaps you feel that such opinions should not be heard? I suppose they call this area Happy Valley for a reason...everything is just hunky-dory! After having lived in so many places then, you can't possibly think that Utah is diverse (which was the original point), can you? So then why are we wasting so much time on something that we agree on?
To address some of your points. I don't think Utah is particularly diverse. I have not witnessed nor experienced the particular forms of racism you describe. However, my daughter has come home from school upset because kids were teasing her. Could it be perhaps kids are equal opportunity teasers? I have had people in line served before me. It had something to do with available tables and party size. My wife did get a ticket for going slightly over the speed limit. And she did have to go to traffic school. But since you have rejected my assertion that she is a minority, there must be some other factor at play then. Some of my neighbors talk to me and some don't. I believe you have had negative experiences. I believe some people could be racist. But I don't accept your assertion that the problem is particularly worse here than other places. And I have been treated poorly in other states as well. Feel free to share your opinions. None of my experiences, which are considerably different than I believe you were expecting, seem to have any validity. In fact you discount them out of hand. That's because I believe you are determined to support your thesis no matter what.
 
Old 08-28-2008, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Lakeland, Florida
4,391 posts, read 9,463,927 times
Reputation: 1866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrprinze View Post
What is Utah really like? I'm moving to Utah from California. Are the people really racist? I'm an African-American of light skin complexion. I've been to Utah before and rarely see Black people. However, I have seen more and more Latinos in SLC County and Utah County.....HELP!
Since the OP was in June of 2007, I would say that this person either moved here or didn't. To answer the original questions what is Utah like....its a great place....are the people really racist...some are most aren't, just like other parts of the US. My son-en-law is from Brazil and lives in Murray and has been treated better than ever, my other son-en-law is from Viet Nam lives in Bountiful and loves it. My daughters boyfriend is from Mexico never wants to go back....thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
 
Old 08-28-2008, 10:51 AM
 
1,627 posts, read 6,492,581 times
Reputation: 1263
I think it's really important to specify what race. All minority groups are not treated teh same. The stereotype for Asians and South Asians is that they are hardworking, intelligent people, so are they going to encounter the same response as a tall, dark-skinned black male? Probably not. And I mention skin tone b/c all black people cannot be thrown in together either. Over and over it has been shown there is more racism from whites (not in Utah specifically, just in general) when a black person has a dark skin tone than a light one. Brazilian? A black Brazilian or one who could "pass" as white? That's an important distinction b/c most racism will be based on how a person is perceived, not on whether he's "really" one thing or another. If people assume a Brazilian is Italian by looking at him, then he won't be received (perhaps) the same way as a Black Brazilian would be perceived.

I have no idea how blacks are treated in Utah, but I do know that in Arizona (in the part we lived in), there were VERY few blacks. There was not much at all in the way of racism toward blacks (my theory is that there is more racism when there is a large group of a minority. It's not that threatening to have 10 black people in town. If suddenly 10,000 moved in, that might create a different reaction). Anyway, what we did find was not racism, but ignorance. People would ask questions they had no idea were inappropriate. They weren't trying to be rude, and they weren't being racist exactly (at least not in a way which meant they didn't like my son who is black), but they would ask crazy questions which you would not get in a place used to black people.

I don't know, but maybe some black people in Utah could comment if, rather than racism, they get asked some crazy questions by white people who are clueless that the questions are inappropriate? I imagine this would be the case, much the same way I imagine that Mormons would get ask some crazy, and sometimes inappropriate questions by non-Mormons if they moved to, for example, Vermont. And most likely people who asked the questions would tell you "I like Mormons just fine" but still would ask odd questions.

I know that I grew up in the East, and did not meet a Mormon (at least that I know of) until I was in my 30s. My perception of LDS and the reality were not the same. I know that now, but I did not know that then! It was simply ignorance on my part. Utah is not used to black people (in general). I just think it's quite likely that some ignorant questions get asked.

Oh, I just want to add that I do think it's great that there is not (from the sound of it!) a lot of racism in the sense of dislike toward minorities, including blacks. We had a very different experience in the South. I'd take some questions coming from lack of exposure to outright dislike any time of the day so it's not at all a criticism of Utah. I hope it hasn't come across that way.
 
Old 08-28-2008, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Lakeland, Florida
4,391 posts, read 9,463,927 times
Reputation: 1866
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogandtoad View Post
I think it's really important to specify what race. All minority groups are not treated teh same. The stereotype for Asians and South Asians is that they are hardworking, intelligent people, so are they going to encounter the same response as a tall, dark-skinned black male? Probably not. And I mention skin tone b/c all black people cannot be thrown in together either. Over and over it has been shown there is more racism from whites (not in Utah specifically, just in general) when a black person has a dark skin tone than a light one. Brazilian? A black Brazilian or one who could "pass" as white? That's an important distinction b/c most racism will be based on how a person is perceived, not on whether he's "really" one thing or another. If people assume a Brazilian is Italian by looking at him, then he won't be received (perhaps) the same way as a Black Brazilian would be perceived.

.
I agree with this. My son is light skin Brazilian. If I didn't know that he was Brazilian I would think he was Italian. He came here for a better life and got his citizenship here.
 
Old 08-28-2008, 11:38 AM
 
1,627 posts, read 6,492,581 times
Reputation: 1263
I thought I'd get blasted for that! More anecdotal evidence that those in UT are tolerant perhaps?!
 
Old 08-28-2008, 07:15 PM
 
1,821 posts, read 7,719,788 times
Reputation: 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogandtoad View Post
I think it's really important to specify what race. All minority groups are not treated teh same. The stereotype for Asians and South Asians is that they are hardworking, intelligent people, so are they going to encounter the same response as a tall, dark-skinned black male? Probably not. And I mention skin tone b/c all black people cannot be thrown in together either. Over and over it has been shown there is more racism from whites (not in Utah specifically, just in general) when a black person has a dark skin tone than a light one. Brazilian? A black Brazilian or one who could "pass" as white? That's an important distinction b/c most racism will be based on how a person is perceived, not on whether he's "really" one thing or another. If people assume a Brazilian is Italian by looking at him, then he won't be received (perhaps) the same way as a Black Brazilian would be perceived.

I have no idea how blacks are treated in Utah, but I do know that in Arizona (in the part we lived in), there were VERY few blacks. There was not much at all in the way of racism toward blacks (my theory is that there is more racism when there is a large group of a minority. It's not that threatening to have 10 black people in town. If suddenly 10,000 moved in, that might create a different reaction). Anyway, what we did find was not racism, but ignorance. People would ask questions they had no idea were inappropriate. They weren't trying to be rude, and they weren't being racist exactly (at least not in a way which meant they didn't like my son who is black), but they would ask crazy questions which you would not get in a place used to black people.

I don't know, but maybe some black people in Utah could comment if, rather than racism, they get asked some crazy questions by white people who are clueless that the questions are inappropriate? I imagine this would be the case, much the same way I imagine that Mormons would get ask some crazy, and sometimes inappropriate questions by non-Mormons if they moved to, for example, Vermont. And most likely people who asked the questions would tell you "I like Mormons just fine" but still would ask odd questions.

I know that I grew up in the East, and did not meet a Mormon (at least that I know of) until I was in my 30s. My perception of LDS and the reality were not the same. I know that now, but I did not know that then! It was simply ignorance on my part. Utah is not used to black people (in general). I just think it's quite likely that some ignorant questions get asked.

Oh, I just want to add that I do think it's great that there is not (from the sound of it!) a lot of racism in the sense of dislike toward minorities, including blacks. We had a very different experience in the South. I'd take some questions coming from lack of exposure to outright dislike any time of the day so it's not at all a criticism of Utah. I hope it hasn't come across that way.
That is very well said. That is my perception of the situation in Utah as well. I'm sure there is the blatant racist here or there. But those kind of people can be found everywhere.
 
Old 08-29-2008, 02:04 AM
 
34 posts, read 157,433 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcats View Post
To address some of your points. I don't think Utah is particularly diverse. I have not witnessed nor experienced the particular forms of racism you describe. However, my daughter has come home from school upset because kids were teasing her. Could it be perhaps kids are equal opportunity teasers? I have had people in line served before me. It had something to do with available tables and party size. My wife did get a ticket for going slightly over the speed limit. And she did have to go to traffic school. But since you have rejected my assertion that she is a minority, there must be some other factor at play then. Some of my neighbors talk to me and some don't. I believe you have had negative experiences. I believe some people could be racist. But I don't accept your assertion that the problem is particularly worse here than other places. And I have been treated poorly in other states as well. Feel free to share your opinions. None of my experiences, which are considerably different than I believe you were expecting, seem to have any validity. In fact you discount them out of hand. That's because I believe you are determined to support your thesis no matter what.
I'm at a loss. You, a white man, are instructing me as to what constitutes a racist act? I think I've been around long enough and lived in enough places that I know when racism is directed towards my family and I. It isn't subtle. Do you even realize how incredibly insensitive your statement is? Of course you don't, and that is the problem. Why is there still the perception that Utah has a race problem? Because the majority, of which you are a member, like to shut their eyes and tell themselves that everything is fine. And as long as the staus quo is fine, there is no need for change.

How should I validate your experiences? What exactly are they supposed to prove? That because a white man hasn't personally witnessed nor experienced any racist acts that racism does not exist? What would you say to the statement that since I have been in Utah, neither I, nor my family, have been involved in any motor vehicle collisions, therefore there are no accidents here?

Am I really free to share my opinions? With you as the self-appointed "defender of the state, race, and faith"? You jumped into this discussion demanding to see the figures backing my claim that Utah is not diverse (which was the original point of this discussion). After I produced the statistics from the US Census Bureau, you claimed they were not valid because they included Hispanics amongst Whites. So then I showed that when you exclude Hispanics from the statistics, the difference between the percentage of whites in Utah and the US as a whole was even higher. At this point, you dismissed them altogether because you "don't trust statistics". You then accused me of manipulating the numbers for my own purposes. Well, I suppose subtraction is a form of manipulation, but I could not be certain that you would be able to do it yourself. I asked you for something, anything, to contradict my claim. You were unable to do that, and finally admitted "I don't think Utah is particularly diverse". You ultimately discounted my experiences to events you claim happen to everyone. Am I really so stupid I can't tell the difference between a racist act and a rude act? By the way, the "C***k" word for Asians is like the "N****r" word for African-Americans. Unfortunately, I see the forum automatically edited the word out, but that is what my son was subjected to in school. Yes, children are cruel, but where would they learn terms like this?
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