Class sizes in Utah schools (Salt Lake City, Granite: lawyers, homes, bankrupt)

[Snowbird]

Hi everyone, I just wanted to post about how frustrated I am with the overcrowded school classrooms here in Utah. We moved to Salt Lake City from Denver a little over a year ago. We live on the east side of SLC, and attend a school with a very good reputation for quality so I was very encouraged and excited about starting my boys who are now in Kindergarten and Second grade. Our school is part of the Granite school district. What I have found is that there is a horrible lack of adequate funding for what I would consider even the basics. My son started first grade with 30 kids in his class, no teaching assistant and a frustrated teacher who spent my entire first meeting with her complaining about the size of the class and telling me that these kids will not learn enough and be WAY behind by 5th or 6th grade. What I later learned is that this size of class is not all that unusual and that the Utah legislature thinks it is OK to have even kindergarten classes of 27 or more. Granted, this is just my experience and most of our teachers are giving their all with what they have been given, but do I really want my kids to get lost in the crowd like that? There is no funding for teaching assistants(something we had in every classroom in Colorado), the principle is thinking about asking the PTA for money to pay for an assistant for a 5th grade class with 35 kids in it. He is doing his best too, but I know he is just as frustrated. We have a very high rate of parent volunteerism at our school, which saves us, but what about schools in less affluent areas of the city where the parents are unable or unwilling to help out? And now I hear stories of high school classes with 50 or more kids? Can this be true? I just think that is ridiculous! I know it is a funding issue, and the Utah legislature continues to underfund schools year after year. Utah has the most kids per capita and the lowest per child funding in the country. Anyway, I just want everyone thinking of moving here from another state to carefully consider schools, I've even heard from a couple of families that some of the private schools are even more crowded. If anyone has had a different experience with schools in the Salt Lake area I would love to hear about it! Sorry about the vent, I just get so mad when I think about the kids getting such a raw deal.

[coolcats]

Yes everything you write is what I've heard also. My kids are not school age yet. If we are here for their school years, I'm seriously considering a charter school if I can find a good one. If not, Ihave to be really aware of the need to spend a lot of time on my own helping my kids.

The good news is Utah does seem to do more with less because the test scores are decent enough when compared to the national averages -- just not stellar.

[Elder_Shawn]

As a youth, I attended school here in Utah and I enojyed it. I can definetly see the benefits of a small class, but I never had one. We always had at a minimum of 30 kids in class. Most of the time there was not enough room for all the desks! Most teachers try really hard, but there were always 3-5 kids that do not want to learn and thus burned up most of the teacher's attention.

College prep was one benefit of having large class sizes. Think back to some of your 101 courses in college. There was a sea of students and the teacher couldn't even see you was in the back. My mom tutored me up the wazzoo when I came home from school, so I think that made up for the lack of attention. I was not dependent on the teacher for most of my school knowledge so large classes were not a problem for me personally. Although if you prefer to leave the education of your children to strangers alone, Utah is not a good place to go to school!

[Snowbird]

Elder Shawn, I've seen your argument used often here in Utah to justify or defend the inadequate state of the public education system. Teachers do more with less, students do fine despite large class sizes etc. For many folks, primarily those with adequate incomes and the willingness or time to devote many hours to shore up at home what is lacking in the schools, kids will do fine. But having lived in four other states besides Utah and having seen what can be done in public schools when funding and staffing are more in line with the norm, it is my opinion that Utah schools are struggling, and many of the kids are struggling just to stay at some acceptable level of proficiency without reaching beyond and testing their capabilities. If kids are spending seven or more hours a day at school and then coming home to be "tutored up the wazzoo", that to me sounds like an inefficient educational system. It has nothing to do with leaving education to strangers alone. As parents I would hope that we see our job as enhancing and reinforcing what is taught in school, and expanding knowledge in subjects that can't be covered in a normal school day. Your statement about strangers alone teaching our kids is a very peculiar way to put the blame on parents for what is not being accomplished in the schools. If you prefer to share the education of your kids with a progressive, adequately funded, innovative school system then maybe Utah is not a good place to go to school.

[Elder_Shawn]

Snowy,

I believe you failed to see my sarcasm. The educational system here in Utah is poor for the most part. My parents saw the deficiencies in public school and compensated for them the best way they seemed fit with supplemental education. I had always wished I could have attended a private school with more attentive teachers. Scheduling AP classes in high school helped to alleviate overcrowding simply due to their advanced nature. Kids had to choose to be in AP classes, so most of the attention starved students were systematically weeded out.

The crew I ran around with in High School are almost all professionals (Doctors, Lawyers, and Dentists.) We all attended Graduate school and are successful in our endeavors, even with our "Utah" education.

My wife and I do not currently have children (or plan to in the near future) but if we did I would most likely send them to a school like Waterford or an Ivy League launch school here in the valley where their options to learn would be more robust.

[chazcrew]

<<Utah has the most kids per capita and the lowest per child funding in the country. >>

I think this pretty much explains the problem. We have more kids to fund from the same number of households as other places. So yeah, the funding gets stretched pretty thin. Property taxes stay the same no matter how many kids are living in those homes.

I'm not pleased with the problems either, although I am impressed that our students are able to do so well considering the lack of funding. My kids are getting a reasonable education, but not a great one. I know that. The math is so bad (alpine school district, using Investigations math -- don't get me started) that I've done tutoring and workbooks with them at home to supplement.

It is a real problem, and I don't think it's going to be solved in the near future. Unfortunately.

[Fresno_Ken]

I just want to make one small comment.... when I grew up as a kid, the average class size was 30. I lived in Sacramento, Ca K-6 and then I moved to Idaho from 7-12. And in Idaho the class sizes were over 25. I realize that class size may be important but it sure makes me wonder why it seems that kids were better educated 30 years ago than now. Maybe because now there is more to lean with computers and technology? I don't know "why", that could be debated, but FACT is even with smaller classes many school districts across the nation are still experiencing lower test scores.

Maybe it is like I think was Rich County? which now switched to the 4-day school week and now schedule the extra curricular activities for Fridays and Saturdays.... the school district found too much time was spent outside the classroom traveling and participating in other activities. And even the qualified teachers were out too often and replaced with subs. Granted it is college, but in college I had classes that were 100 people. I was not the size of the class but the amount of time I went to class. I found that when I wasn't able to go to class my scores dropped and when I did show up I did well.

Also, when I was a kid my parents spent time with me after school and covered my homework with me. Even after I was done, my parents would go over it with them and had me explain what I had learned. Today, parents both work and kids are lucky if they are asked if they did their homework let alone actually go over it together.

Put the differences with 30 years ago compared with today, it seems to be more of a result of less parent involvement, time in class, and changes in technology rather than five or ten extra kids in a classroom.

But then what do I know for certain.... I think everyone has an opinion and a personal experience that may validate how they feel and why. I just know I did well in school and college and I never had less than 20 in any of my classes.

[Snowbird]

Ken, you make some good points. I agree that way too many parents spend energy on their own work while the kids are at after school programs or at a care center. It would help tremendously if there was someone at home after school for many reasons. This being said though, it doesn't make logical sense to me that just because that's the way things have always been done, that we shouldn't look for improvements. The educational system in America has been going downhill for some time and is in need of a fix. I don't believe that just throwing money at the problem is the answer either. There was a great article in US News this week about the revamping of the Boston school system. They have changed many things from administration involvement, raising teacher pay and lowering student/teacher ratios to 12:1. I know that is probably not going to happen in most places but it would be a great goal to shoot for. My concerns aren't so much for the older grades, when kids are more self reliant (I would hope) and proactive about their education. I'm concerned mainly about the early elementary ages. If the teacher is so busy organizing 30+ small kids, it just becomes crowd control and not a stimulating learning environment. My son, a curious and interested kid, was starting to really dislike going to school last year when he was stuck in a class with 30 other 6 year olds. This year he is a class of only 17 and is thriving. Maybe that's just his personality, but no amount of extra work at home is going to motivate a kid to want to learn in an overcrowded environment. I think that most kids are going to do OK, and I know that my kids will be fine because I'm here and paying attention to what they are learning, but I just think that we are stuck in a mindset of accepting the status quo when things could be done so much better.

[Elder_Shawn]

I was the strereotypical Asian kid in school (keeping my head down and doing what the teacher told me to do without causing a disturbance) and did most of my homework in advance. Even if my classes were 40+ kids I would still have done well in school because I knew what my parents expected of me and what I expected out of myself. Sadly I never carried over those study habits in college!

[Fresno_Ken]

Elder Shawn you make me laugh! Somehow I think you made it through college! But you make my point that some times class sizes are not the biggest factor.

However, Snowbird, I do agree with you that 30 six year olds is nothing more than crowd control. Maybe the size of the classroom is important in relation to the age of the students. 100 college students like I mentioned previously is okay when we are 18+. But at five years old to sixth grade, maybe 20 is plenty. Of course, if I really look back, I think we had volunteer parents in most of my classes along with student teachers in some. So it was one qualified teacher with several teachers’ aids. That probablly made a difference too compared to the classrooms today.

And I do agree with you when you said if it can get better, we should make strides to reach higher levels. But, in the state I live in, California, the state is broke. Roads in Fresno are on hold because they ran out of funding for projects, welfare is bankrupting the state, schools are underfunded, there is a shortage of services such as police and fire, there are compliants that the prisons are overcrowded and no money to build new ones so prisoners are being released much earlier than they should, courts are backed up for months to years, and I could go on and on..... so sometimes I just hope there is even a school to even send my kids here in Fresno. It really doesn't make sense to worry about class size when I am just worried about there being even a school. LOL

I did like what you wrote..... and you had many valid points! Maybe if the United States stopped sending billions of dollars overseas to dozens of other countries and spent our tax dollars here at home we would have better schools, better roads, better services, and maybe even lower taxes! LOL

But hey, I am just a guy with an opinion, what do I know!