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I've brought up issues as have others, your counter every time is to either ignore them or state, for a fact, it is everyone else that is at fault and that we are on a "witch hunt." Should I go point by point? THEN will you actually discourse without sniping at those of us seeing the area as it is?
- The Wages are incredibly low, so low some $80,000 jobs elsewhere pay $28,000 here. The wages are some of the absolute worst in the Nation.
- There isn't an actual legitimate Economic model in UT County, it's 90% MLM garbage, scamming the "Gentiles."
- The wages are artificially stagnated and kept low instead of letting the market decide.
- The rampant Welfare abuse, walk into any DWS Office in UT Co. and you'll see countless SUV driving Soccer Moms in their $200 Mod Bod costumes and 5 kids in tow waiting in line for us taxpayers to pay for the kids they cannot afford to have. According to a BYU Employee I am related to the encouragement starts with the Counselors there instructing Students on how to game the system.
- There is rampant homelessness in Provo/Orem as well as Pan Handlers. You cannot even go around the East Bay area without drug addict vagrants begging you for meth money, the Cops just walk by allowing it.
- The Freeway system sucks, the Cities are miles from the Freeway(which can be okay) yet the exits are 3-6 miles apart. It makes getting to work horrible at times, especially with Utah drivers.
- Utah drivers. 'Nuff said.
- The people are rude. I am sure it is completely my fault that they are, but they are nontheless. I could rehash how my first week here I was accosted by the rednecks of S. Utah county finding reasons to walk over to me anytime I came home from Work to tell me the days reason why Arizona sucks and how Utah is better. Seriously, this went on for several months. I've detailed how out of three moves everyone has been so "nice", coming over to hand my wife and I step by step directions of where the Ward is, who their Bishop is, when it begins and where it is located.... And then quickly turn to ignoring us after the 2nd week of not showing up. We personally have had our landlord violate our privacy(he swears he didn't) by giving HIS Bishop(not mine) my name and phone number. That is a violation of my privacy, but okay. The drivers are rude, the people are rude(I guess that's my fault, I am used to when I smile or say excuse me to move out of their way, or smile at a neighbor or act like a human being I expect the same in return instead of glares or having the kindness ignore) and it is what it is.
You're kidding, right? Currently there's a fight going in Orem to ban T-Shirts and billboards featuring Females in Bikinis being displayed, there is an active fight, recently in the news by a BYU housewife to ban Comso Magazine from being sold in all of Utah, the required blue covers over any Magazines featuring humans, banning Music groups from coming here in the 1990's for 1st Amendment violations and of course the violating Federal Laws regarding discussing Religion in the workplace, Federal Housing Guidelines(you're not allowed to segregate Apartments based on Race, Gender, Marital Status ect)
Oh and a UT Politician recently admitted he confers with the "Apostles" before setting Government Policy, violating the Separation of Church and State and fully admitting on record Utah is running as a Theocracy which violates the Constitution of the United States of America.
I could go on and on with the Governmental Issues, if you were a Libertarian as you say you would already be well aware of the Anti-American Gov't set up and I wouldn't need to detail every last aspect of it as you make apologies for it and spin it.
Is that good enough? Or do I need to continue? Or will you just ignore this one as well and go back to saying anyone with a problem is at fault?
No one is "at fault." You are not a match for the area. That should be enough. But some folks are convinced that when things are not the way they want them to be, they must go on a crusade.
As for some of your comments, I really don't have a problem with a Cosmo cover at the checkout stand. But I can't really see what benefit that cover is for me one way or the other. And neither do I have a problem with a bikini add on a billboard, although I must say that I don't care one way or the other there either. I don't wear bikinis... even when I'm cross-dressing. I just don't have the body for it.
People are rude? What you describe isn't rude, it's more like being jerks. I've never had anything like that happen to me. Maybe I scare people? Don't know. I've never gotten so much attention as you describe. Maybe I should try that bikini.
And as for the band thing... I never have had a desire to see (or hear) Marilyn Manson anyway. Give me some Brazilian beach Bossa Nova with Brazilianas in bikinis. (you can put that on a billboard if you like as long as Antonio Jobim's "Wave" is playing on the billboard's radio broadcast as I'm passing)
We do, however, after all of our sparks and friction, agree on one thing in the end: the Utah Driver (tm) being among the most vile, putrid, hideous creatures on the planet. The only good Utah Driver is one who has had his/her license revoked, and can no longer drive. There is a thread somewhere on the Utah forum that discusses these miserable vermin. The latest development I have noticed with the Utah Driver (tm) is the loss of mobility in their arms. It seems they are losing the ability to turn their steering wheels when rounding a corner. I've nearly had a head-on twice in the last six months while stopping at a stop sign due to a Utah Driver (tm) driving down the wrong side of the road after "turning" the corner. But that's fuel for another thread.
That last sentence is priceless after your "judgement" in the entire post above. Try not to judge? Your whole post is a judgement.
Now let me judge a bit as well: you are describing "snobs." I have no great love for them either. But they are not hurting me by doing their thing, even if I think its silly. See, I choose not to engage in that sort of lifestyle. So I've never had a problem with it. If I'm surrounded by rich people and I'm not rich, why should I care? You sound a little like a compulsive gambler living in Las Vegas. But you have done the right thing and moved away. On the other hand, a non-cumpulsive gambler would probably have no issues with all the gambling going on around him/her in Las Vegas.
Judgement is a part of life, I've judged what I've seen in the years growing up in Utah County and decided it's not for me. But I'm more referring to the kind of judgement where people think they're better than others when they don't even know them. Like when me and my girlfriend are standing in line at Target in American Fork and the woman ahead of us is all smiles until she sees the tattoo on my girlfriend's arm, her smile turns to a look of apprehension and disgust, she does an about face immediately not realizing that my girlfriend is the kindest, nicest, most genuine girl you'd ever meet.
Or the judgement my girlfriend gets from her hypocritical parents because she doesn't go to church, yet she acts more Christian than they ever do.
Utah County has some seriously confused people, and a whacked culture. But hey, some people like that.
(And I don't live in Vegas, not sure where the hell you got that from, I hate Casinos and gambling, cigarette smoke makes me sick)
No one is "at fault." You are not a match for the area. That should be enough. But some folks are convinced that when things are not the way they want them to be, they must go on a crusade.
No crusade needed, just sharing MY opinion as we are all allowed to. Of course again, I don't see you throwing accusations towards the apologists and their legitimate crusades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
As for some of your comments, I really don't have a problem with a Cosmo cover at the checkout stand. But I can't really see what benefit that cover is for me one way or the other. And neither do I have a problem with a bikini add on a billboard, although I must say that I don't care one way or the other there either. I don't wear bikinis... even when I'm cross-dressing. I just don't have the body for it.
You miss the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
And as for the band thing... I never have had a desire to see (or hear) Marilyn Manson anyway.
You miss the point. Or maybe choose to ignore it to continue your own little crusade.
The difference is that I'm not constantly slamming and categorizing an entire population of 500,000 plus people. You tell me who has the sour grapes and assumes that what's not right for you isn't right for anyone else either. You really do feel that 500,000 people are all messed up based on which valley they live in and as soon as you round the Point of the Mountain, the sunbeams suddenly start radiating from everyone's head?
Again, can you show me any "cause" that I may have besides countering comments that I feel are ludicrous? I'm not defending the valley, I'm offering an opposing opinion to what I feel are unfair and unwarranted comments that are constantly echoed on this forum. Every once in awhile I drop by to see if the little bashing party is over. But it never is. You guys have a 24/7/52 party going on. As I said, don't let me stop your fiesta.
The difference is that I'm not constantly slamming and categorizing an entire population of 500,000 plus people.
Neither is anyone else. I know with the whole groupthink going on it is hard to wrap ones mind around, but discussing SOME people and what can be experienced by MANY people doing certain things doesn't equate to every single person, much as you apologists take it as.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
You really do feel that 500,000 people are all messed up based on which valley they live in and as soon as you round the Point of the Mountain, the sunbeams suddenly start radiating from everyone's head?
Yet again, Chris the Apologist starts stretching the hyberpole far and wide.
Again, can you show me any "cause" that I may have besides countering comments that I feel are ludicrous?
[/quote]
You seem to be on a crusade to denigrate and throw limp passive aggressive attacks at anyone who dares point out the flaws within Utah County. You still won't address any issues and continue trying to take it to a personal level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
I'm offering an opposing opinion to what I feel are unfair and unwarranted comments that are constantly echoed on this forum.
Opinion which seems to be echoed by hundreds of thousands of people across the United States and within Utah County. The problem is your agenda is to drown out the thousands, expecting everyone to listen to the little clique of apologists on here claiming what everyone else is seeing is a mirage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
Every once in awhile I drop by to see if the little bashing party is over. But it never is. You guys have a 24/7/52 party going on. As I said, don't let me stop your fiesta.
Who are "you guys" and where is this fictional "party" except within your head? There is no party, nor a group of "you guys" except, maybe for the clique of apologists. There IS however INDIVIDUALS coming on a web forum to share THEIR experiences and THEIR opinions. Despite all your whining and moaning 1: That isn't going to stop and 2: 'They", or "we" have just as much of a right to share our opinions as the cheerleaders. Get over with it, keep about it, either one is your right. Unlike you I won't go on an agenda to tell those who disagree with me to be quiet and stop posting.
Neither is anyone else. I know with the whole groupthink going on it is hard to wrap ones mind around, but discussing SOME people and what can be experienced by MANY people doing certain things doesn't equate to every single person, much as you apologists take it as.
Yet again, Chris the Apologist starts stretching the hyberpole far and wide.
Again, can you show me any "cause" that I may have besides countering comments that I feel are ludicrous?
You seem to be on a crusade to denigrate and throw limp passive aggressive attacks at anyone who dares point out the flaws within Utah County. You still won't address any issues and continue trying to take it to a personal level.
Opinion which seems to be echoed by hundreds of thousands of people across the United States and within Utah County. The problem is your agenda is to drown out the thousands, expecting everyone to listen to the little clique of apologists on here claiming what everyone else is seeing is a mirage.
Who are "you guys" and where is this fictional "party" except within your head? There is no party, nor a group of "you guys" except, maybe for the clique of apologists. There IS however INDIVIDUALS coming on a web forum to share THEIR experiences and THEIR opinions. Despite all your whining and moaning 1: That isn't going to stop and 2: 'They", or "we" have just as much of a right to share our opinions as the cheerleaders. Get over with it, keep about it, either one is your right. Unlike you I won't go on an agenda to tell those who disagree with me to be quiet and stop posting.
Inspect the posts in this forum concerning Utah County. Take a look at the responses. What do you want to bet that a significant majority of them are written by residents of Salt Lake County, and that within those posts written by residents of SLC, the overwhelming majority are zeroed in on what's "wrong with Utah County"?
Now go to the state forums for any other state of the union and see if you encounter that high an incidence of those sorts of posts about any other place in the union. Of course, there will always be sour grape posts in any forum as I stated before, but it would be interesting to actually document how much more prevalent they are here.
Not only that, but I see the silliest comments here about what is "wrong" with Utah County. Most of the comments are about how horrible the "culture" is here. Every place in the country has it's own "culture." It's not just here. Go to south central LA or small town Iowa and tell me that there is no predominant culture there. Different cultures. Nothing wrong with that. And I read of a woman who was appalled by a tattoo. Good grief. So what? She has every right to not like tattoos. Opinions are still legal. Now if she were assaulting someone, or slandering or breaking laws, that would be different. Otherwise we all should have a right to like or dislike anything we please.
I'm not commenting on your specifics because I don't really have a dog in this fight. I don't have all that much to say about the area one way or the other because I know my opinion will not be shared by everyone, so I will comment on hard facts like weather, population stats, driving in the area, etc. But, I just hate to see people who are potentially moving to the area being completely turned off by "beware, you are moving into hell on earth" types of posts. Not everyone is going to experience what you have experienced in the area. I never have. And I know I'm not alone. We all experience and view things differently. And it isn't that I'm saying none of it happens. I'm saying it doesn't happen to everyone. It depends on your attitude and the attitude of the predominant culture of the area, and if they are at all compatible.
Just to show that I did not "miss the point," I will comment on one thing you brought up though that I HAVE noticed in the area and I don't see it as a good thing. Some of the population of the area see fit to attempt to regulate "morality" via the legal system (your comments about Cosmo, bikinis, music, etc). Not only is that against the spirit of their religion, but Constitutionally speaking, passing laws to regulate that sort of thing is a clear violation of the rights that were intended by the founders (of course, so are things like not being able to buy a large soda in NYC, so it's not unique to this area). However, having said that, a predominant culture has every right to attempt to regulate "morality" through other means beyond legislation yet still within the law, such as peaceful public assembly/protest, "exclusion" or non-association within the community, Boycotts, community organization, etc. They have every right to do that. Liberal/progressive activists use all those techniques to great effect. I think it's pretty stupid of conservative "activists" not to use the same sort of tactics.
Yet, as I said, personally I really don't care. I'm just commenting about what I see on this forum. You can put a penthouse centerfold on the billboard as far as I'm concerned. But again, I think it is perfectly within a community's rights to oppose such things (through the above tactics) if they wish. My opinion is that that is what makes a cohesive community.
Note: your snarkiness is not helping your points at all. To the casual reader it will have the exact opposite of the effect you intend. Beyond that, you're not hurting my feelings at all.
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(you can put that on a billboard if you like as long as Antonio Jobim's "Wave" is playing on the billboard's radio broadcast as I'm passing)
about it, either one is your right. Unlike you I won't go on an agenda to tell those who disagree with me to be quiet and stop posting.
