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Old 03-08-2019, 05:00 PM
 
4,122 posts, read 3,775,802 times
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This is a perfect, although extreme, example of the kind of monochrome culture encountered in much of Utah (outside of the SL valley).

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/us/4t...rnd/index.html

A 4th grader wore an ash cross from mass on Ash Wednesday, and his teacher, even though he told her what it was, told him it was "inappropriate" and made him wash it off. It's not that she was being mean, or bullying him. She probably had grown up LDS in a predominantly LDS area, and simply never had encountered this religious custom before, and thought it was inappropriate for the boy to have a dirty smudge in the shape of a cross on his forehead, while in school.

When people post saying that they have a great job offer in Provo, or Davis County, or really, just about anywhere in Utah outside of SLC, and want to know what it would be like for them and their kids, they should know about this. It's not that their kids would necessarily be bullied. But it's very, very hard to be a religious minority in an area where one religion is so predominant, and all-pervasive of every aspect of life.
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Old 03-08-2019, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,954 posts, read 22,094,309 times
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As unfortunate as this incident was (and it definitely was a stupid, insensitive thing the teacher did), given the fact that it's the first time something like this has ever happened (to the best of my knowledge; please correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think it ought to raise any red flags among people considering a move to Utah. Thousands of Utah kids who are not LDS go to school with LDS kids, play with them, are on soccer teams with them, have sleep-overs with them, etc. and never experience anything like this all the time they're growing up.

And just for the record, while it is entirely possible and even likely that the teacher was LDS, I have not been able to find anything in the news stating her religion. Seriously, why does everyone want to believe the worst, why the need to jump to conclusions, and why the need to stereotype? This was one teacher out of the thousands who have taught in Utah schools over the years. If it had happened in another state, it probably wouldn't have even made the news, and there would have been no automatic assumptions about the teacher's religion.
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Old 03-09-2019, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Evanston & Lake Forest, Illinois
1,443 posts, read 708,759 times
Reputation: 1803
Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post
This is a perfect, although extreme, example of the kind of monochrome culture encountered in much of Utah (outside of the SL valley).

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/us/4t...rnd/index.html

A 4th grader wore an ash cross from mass on Ash Wednesday, and his teacher, even though he told her what it was, told him it was "inappropriate" and made him wash it off. It's not that she was being mean, or bullying him. She probably had grown up LDS in a predominantly LDS area, and simply never had encountered this religious custom before, and thought it was inappropriate for the boy to have a dirty smudge in the shape of a cross on his forehead, while in school.

When people post saying that they have a great job offer in Provo, or Davis County, or really, just about anywhere in Utah outside of SLC, and want to know what it would be like for them and their kids, they should know about this. It's not that their kids would necessarily be bullied. But it's very, very hard to be a religious minority in an area where one religion is so predominant, and all-pervasive of every aspect of life.
I doubt that the teacher even knew what it was, and I doubt the student informed her what it was. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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Old 03-09-2019, 07:59 AM
 
1,183 posts, read 759,580 times
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Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
I doubt that the teacher even knew what it was, and I doubt the student informed her what it was. Nothing to see here. Move along.
he did inform her
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:05 AM
 
306 posts, read 471,705 times
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Hiroku is a pretty good example of the dismissiveness which anyone who has any issue with treatment by LDS will sometimes be be met with in Utah.

In the local media, it was made clear that the kid did state what the cross was.

That being said, it was also stated that the teacher formally apologized to the student and the student accepted the apology, in part because he likes his teacher and said that she is "pretty nice." That's the ideal resolution.
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Old 03-09-2019, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Evanston & Lake Forest, Illinois
1,443 posts, read 708,759 times
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I doubt very seriously that the child was as eloquent and direct with his teacher as he has been in media reports following—reports that have been carefully staged to include the ash on his forehead.

I'm not saying that this religious display should not be allowed, but I do sympathize with the teacher and I can imagine that it would be disruptive.

Growing up in an area where Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans greatly outnumber Latter-day Saints, I can't think of a single time when I was in school when a child or instructor showed up with ashes on their forehead.

This is a non-story and has only grabbed headlines because of some people (you among them it seems, parentologist) striving to make Utah look bad, including the parents who obviously contacted media.
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:51 PM
 
Location: SLC
465 posts, read 425,656 times
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I think cederite captures the dismissiveness of some posters - particularly Hiruko - very well. Unfortunately, Hiruko always has serious doubts over anything that might reflect badly on the LDS conduct. And, anyone sharing anything that is even marginally negative about the Utah/LDS conduct is striving to make Utah look bad. Which often precedes why are you in Utah if you dislike it so much and why don’t you move on or something to that effect.

This is a board where current and former residents of Utah share their experiences, thoughts and perceptions with others, and not a marketing website for Utah or its dominant religion. People’s experiences are different, and they are as real as those of someone else. We see plenty of good - people (of all religions including some wonderful LDS people), nature and so on, and plenty of bad - one-party/one-religion-dominated politics, poor environmental stewardship, and so on.

Details of the story aside, parentologist’s point of monochrome culture outside of the SL valley is very valid based upon everything I have read about.
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Old 03-10-2019, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Evanston & Lake Forest, Illinois
1,443 posts, read 708,759 times
Reputation: 1803
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavm View Post
I think cederite captures the dismissiveness of some posters - particularly Hiruko - very well. Unfortunately, Hiruko always has serious doubts over anything that might reflect badly on the LDS conduct. And, anyone sharing anything that is even marginally negative about the Utah/LDS conduct is striving to make Utah look bad. Which often precedes why are you in Utah if you dislike it so much and why don’t you move on or something to that effect.

This is a board where current and former residents of Utah share their experiences, thoughts and perceptions with others, and not a marketing website for Utah or its dominant religion. People’s experiences are different, and they are as real as those of someone else. We see plenty of good - people (of all religions including some wonderful LDS people), nature and so on, and plenty of bad - one-party/one-religion-dominated politics, poor environmental stewardship, and so on.

Details of the story aside, parentologist’s point of monochrome culture outside of the SL valley is very valid based upon everything I have read about.
It will never cease to amaze me how people feel comfortable making such sweeping generalizations and engaging in harmful negative stereotyping of an entire group of people. Can you imagine a thread titled "For all those who are considering moving to a predominantly black area of Georgia with kids" or "For all those who are considering moving to a predominantly Cuban area of South Florida with kids" and then proceed to post an article detailing some crime committed by an African-American against a child or an article about a racist exile that harassed a school girl?

I don't think there is anything wrong with sharing your views about certain neighborhoods or discussing demographics, but I do think that there is something very problematic about trying to tarnish Latter-day Saints with the clumsy actions of a school teacher—a teacher whom it has not even been confirmed whether they are a Latter-day Saint. Even if that were confirmed, it still would not lend any validity to any perceived hostility from Latter-day Saints. Their problem is their problem, and there is no evidence to suggest that there is a major problem with Catholic children being permitted to practice their religion. It's also rich reading the sob stories of white gentiles and their children on the trials and tribulations of being a minority somewhere. Join the club.

You clearly have no idea what my views are on real Utah issues, nor do you know about my faith background or practice. For the record, I have said on a number of occasions that I view Utah public education as sorely lacking in resources. I have never made any attempts to defend Utah air quality. I do think that the state and local industry is doing more than some of you will allow, and I think that many of you need to think more realistically about the causes of poor air quality and what can actually be accomplished. I do think that complaining about the demographics of Utah officeholders (or anywhere else) is asinine. These people are democratically elected in the same manner as in every other state. If you do not like the demographics, you go out and campaign for people that fit your desired demographic. I don't find it important for my representatives to represent my particular demographic. It is much more important to me that they reflect my views and conduct themselves in an ethical and effective manner.
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Old 03-10-2019, 07:13 AM
 
4,122 posts, read 3,775,802 times
Reputation: 11296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
I doubt very seriously that the child was as eloquent and direct with his teacher as he has been in media reports following—reports that have been carefully staged to include the ash on his forehead.

I'm not saying that this religious display should not be allowed, but I do sympathize with the teacher and I can imagine that it would be disruptive.

Growing up in an area where Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans greatly outnumber Latter-day Saints, I can't think of a single time when I was in school when a child or instructor showed up with ashes on their forehead.

This is a non-story and has only grabbed headlines because of some people (you among them it seems, parentologist) striving to make Utah look bad, including the parents who obviously contacted media.
I grew up in an area with mostly Jews and Catholics, some Protestants. Students and teachers wore ashes every year to school. I think that Catholics who go to mass on Ash Wednesday wear the ashes all day, uniformly.
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:21 AM
 
1,183 posts, read 759,580 times
Reputation: 3403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
I doubt very seriously that the child was as eloquent and direct with his teacher

I'm not saying that this religious display should not be allowed, but I do sympathize with the teacher and I can imagine that it would be disruptive.

so what if the child wasn't eloquent? good lord.

no, ashes are not disruptive. people all across this country have ashes on their foreheads on ash wednesday, in work places and schools. i haven't read of any disruptions to the day to day.
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