Non-mormon family looking to relocate to Lehi (Provo, Sandy: condos, chapels)

[REguy]

Originally Posted by chazcrew

REguy, I don't know what kind of answer you expect, but there's a very simple answer to your question. This state is full of churches and temples because they're needed. Believe it or not, most of those church buildings have three separate wards (congregations) meeting in it each Sunday. And the temples have been so busy that new ones have had to be built. I know it seems like overkill, but it's true. Even in my little town, each time a new development goes in, so does a new church, because that development is chock full of active LDS families, and one neighborhood will fill an entire ward.
And the money used to build these churches and temples comes from tithing funds, so in essence we're all paying for the buildings ourselves.

As for the real estate, I think the church buys land as things are being developed, if it sees a future need for a church to accommodate its growing membership. But I don't know for sure how that works.

Space needle? Really? Huh. Needs a big round flying saucer thing at the top to really resemble that, I think.

Imagine if I developed a 100-200 home community - similar to all others, but refused to sell land to the church. I bet there would be an uproar, and goons from the (new word I learned here) "Churchislature" coming down on me. But I am sure no one would buy homes there anyway except non-LDS. As I am sure LDS do their due-dilligence first and ask if there is going to be a "community" ward prior to buying new construction.

This is unlike any other situation in America, really. Thats why I find it fascinating. When I was in Utah, at my brother's retreat in Park City, there were even commercials for Missionary clothing stores, or something like that. I am just rambling. I guess I find it so interesting because I live in SUCH a diverse state, I am caucasion, never been "discriminated against", I'm very Moral, very Republican, have a wife, kid, own a home, blah blah blah....so I am trying to comprehend and discuss my amazement that I would likely be judged or discriminated quite a bit more than ever before were I to move to Utah - which oddly enough is filled with Caucasions, "moral" people on the average, like minded people in the political arena, and many married families with kids. All so VERY similar to me. VERY similar. Except for one thing.

Oh well. Thanks for your reply Chazcrew.

[chazcrew]

Oh, but I don't think it's the developers selling the land, most of the time. Around here, anyway, they buy the land from the city. And in areas where there is no land available, they meet in existing buildings. I remember reading an article about New York City wards, meeting in all sorts of odd places, because there's simply nowhere to build a church.

Don't take the discrimination talk to heart. It's really not like that.

[LlasaLost]

REguy---suggest for your next trip you visit New England and Texas; then you'll know what a church with a steeple looks like and you won't have to guess what all those "space needles" in Utah are

[REguy]

Originally Posted by LlasaLost

REguy---suggest for your next trip you visit New England and Texas; then you'll know what a church with a steeple looks like and you won't have to guess what all those "space needles" in Utah are

Thanks Lost,

50% of my family lives in New England. Been there several times - I love it there. My problem is not with the design of your churches (wards) whatsoever, rather its with the obvious, over the top abundance of their presence. I've just never seen a presence of churches like that before - and you can't say there is another area of the country with another similar public outward display of religeon. Like I said, if the churches (Wards), were actually a building for something else, such as a political group, the opposite political group would feel unwelcome (in general) due the simple fact of the abundant number of highly visible buildings for that group. And they sky high above all other buildings, so its not like they "aren't obvious". They say: "Hi, Mormons over here", and I can imagine they would say that to me on way way to the drug store, the video store, to work, to the etc etc etc, every day. I just couldn't deal with that I suppose. Not to say there aren't non-LDS who care less about the subject, and live happily "around" it all.
While I am not a Sunday faithful, I do believe in my heart certain things about my maker which is my business - I don't wish to engange in a religeous debate at all, at least here. Your beliefs are your business, I guess and a million others. I'm more interested in how the Non-LDS cope in a place like Utah. I already know how I cope being non-LDS in California. Its pretty easy. I live in city of about 200k people (which is large), there are about 3 Lds Churches I know of and "can see", and there are a good handful of other churches, methosist, baptist, non denominational, catholic, and jewish. The only church "steeple" I saw of another religeon was while I was in Park City. I traveled as far north as Farmington and Fruit Heights or something.
USC vs Cal game is coming on! (Priorities) Take care!
Just to reiterate and make clear. I am very happy there is a Mormon religeon, I am glad they desire fellowship and seek it out, and a state (place) in which they all share a lot of History after "many years of opression" (before we were all born). My "deal" is with the dominance of the church in a state that I last recalled was 1 of the 50. I wanted to move there, and I have the freedom to do so, but I feel like it'd be no different than me moving to Saudi Arabia. I'd be an outsider. I can't say the same for the other 49 states, except for "maybe" Hawaii for non-religeous reasons.
Game time!

[DP525]

Originally Posted by REguy

By the way... what is the deal with the "wards/temples" anyway??? Are they guaranteed a spot in ANY new development of new homes there? Obviously they are an extremely wealthy church to pop a building up in every neighborhood. But really, is there some sort of state mandate/law that guarantees the church real estate 'space', or do they simply open up their pocket book to the land owner/developer each time a community is announced? I'd love to learn more about that, as its fascinating for many reasons to me, even though its a practice I disagree with.

If you read this far - take care!!

Most of the land developers and county administrators are probably members. Of course they are going to allow the wardhouses to be built. The owners of Kennecott Land were "extremely honored" that the Church chose Daybreak to build a new temple.

[LlasaLost]

Question: you're all for religious freedom, etc., etc., but you move into (or or thinking of doing so) an area where 50% or more of the population is of one particular religion---and you get bent out of shape regarding the presence of same.

What would you like the LDS Church and it's members to do? Shall we get rid of most of our buildings? Shall we pretend to not be members? Shall we never invite you to join us? Shall we join you in your life-style? What, exactly, would please you, make you feel at home, and never give offense or make you feel different? AND--would you have this same type of reaction if you moved to, say, the Jewish section of NYC, or is it just the "Mormons"?

By the way, I have NEVER asked anyone if they're "Mormon" and I have NEVER been asked that question when I've moved into a new area--including my new neighborhood here in Utah; oh, that's wrong--I was asked about it twice in one place we lived in CA, but both times the question was asked by non-LDS. Go figure!

[REguy]

This is great. This forum. I was looking for facts, both bias and non bias facts on why there is such an obviously large concentration of churches in Utah...and I end up reading for hours a 23 page thread, and posting on one for the 1st time in my life. And here I am now in the middle of, I guess we can call it a debate. But really I prefer to keep it at the level of just expressing feelings because I know the way things are now, will be how they are for 20-30-probably 50 years from now in Utah, so why debate as if I can change anything.
Furthermore, I am not the least interested in discussing other peoples religeons as if I really know anything intimate about them. I don't care what type of handshakes you do in an exclusive private ceremony. I don't care that my Mormon brother and his wife wear underwear under their underwear to fend off evil. This is all your choice and "calling".
Lost or Chaz you have made a good point... since there are simply MANY "practicing" Mormons in the state of Utah, you obviously need a place to meet up at and share fellowship. Much like any religeon does.
My purpose is to give you the Point of View of an outsider coming into your state, one that is still part of our America. I simply made it known that it is not possible for me to now consider what I feel is the prettiest state Ive been to, for my future home. The first reason is the amount of Mormon churches that exist. This is my problem I realize, but I can guarantee you many other non LDS would and probably do feel the same. My reaction was natural. Humans arent THAT different. So others I'm sure have shared my reaction. If the wards/temples looked like normal buildings and blended in with other businesses and what not, maybe I wouldnt notice the many hundred(s) of them just from the 15 freeway. No - I'm not suggesting the designs change to make me more comfortable.
Look at what DP said back near page 4 or so, he said "Gosh there are a lot of (LDS) steeples! It seems there is an LDS church every other block! The concentration of churches seemed to be considerably less in Draper and Sandy (but still plenty)." He was an outsider (nonLDS) and had the exact same observation as I. . But he did take the job anyway, and has now moved there and in doing so has helped me not make a huge potential mistake upon noting that, He feels uncomfortable to go out on his own front porch to enjoy a beer, and that even his wife is concerned about dressing less than conservative for fear of awkward moments between neighbors that have already placed them on a MAP as not being one of them. That map thing cracks me up though - sorry. Cant you just trust whoever is Mormon will show up to the church, and if they DONT, well then they DONT? I am digressing and moving more towards a debate I guess.
DP is now even sharing more of his thoughts regarding the Temple his home development was so "honored" to be bestowed with. Is this in addition to a neighborhood ward? For me, I guess I would call it a VERY visible "block by block" reminder that I'm not Mormon. Id prefer to focus on thoughts that are actually relevant to my life, and not feel compelled to dwell on my "differentness" (if thats a word) from what is obviously the majority at the school, the work, the city govt, state govtg, and even the US representivtives for Utah.
Lost, your example of NYC is a very weak one. I can move to one of probably 20 different NYC neighborhoods like SoHo, Chinatown, Tribeca, Little Italy, Upper East Side, Greenwich Village, Harlem, etc etc .. and I'd STILL be in NYC. So, if I were adverse in any way shape or form to the Jewish neighborhood you mentioned - there is always 19 other culturaly different neighbohoods with a place of worship 180 degrees different from the last! List me other great examples of places JUST LIKE the great state of Utah. I don't think you can. Its a unique homogeneous state, that has no equal. I learned this only upon entering it physically.
I just want to be constructive and tell you, whether anyone cares or not, your state is missing out on a lot of great Americans moving in because of the overbearing factor. Which sucks, because I'd move there if it were more diverse. I love the scenery. I think in many years - after I'm gone, that will change. But being the way I am, I have never felt like I didn't belong somewhere. Ive never felt that way, until being in your state. Its just so odd because in general I identify with Mormans on so many levels, except for sharing their same belief system.
Have a great evening!

[aussie_american]

Originally Posted by REguy

...I just want to be constructive and tell you, whether anyone cares or not, your state is missing out on a lot of great Americans moving in because of the overbearing factor. Which sucks, because I'd move there if it were more diverse. I love the scenery. I think in many years - after I'm gone, that will change. But being the way I am, I have never felt like I didn't belong somewhere. Ive never felt that way, until being in your state. Its just so odd because in general I identify with Mormans on so many levels, except for sharing their same belief system...

REguy I thought I would share my experience of visiting Utah because my impressions seem very different to you. My father-in-law and his wife have lived in Salt Lake City for the last eight years. He was an engineer who lived all over the world and chose SLC to retire to because of its beautiful scenery, low crime rate, good cost of living and access to outdoor activities (He still mountain bikes and skiis although he is in his 70's). His wife is an American citizen born in Singapore and is of the Muslim faith. It may surprise you to know that there is actually a reasonably sized Muslim population in SLC. They have never felt ostracised by the LDS. They live in Salt Lake Valley, which by all accounts is more diverse than the communities in Utah Valley. Perhaps you should spend some more time in Salt Lake Valley on your next visit?

My husband, children and I have visited SLC a few times and I have NEVER felt like the "odd one out" or excluded by the locals. Everyone I have interacted with in the stores and restaurants have been pleasant, and while some have been helpful and some not-so-helpful, this is the case everywhere in the world that I have lived or visited. To be frank, I haven't even noticed that there was a preponderance of LDS churches. Not that they aren't there, but I have to say the number of churches around is not really something I think I've ever paid attention to. There is so much else to look at there! To me, the more detrimental "view" has been the haze that often overhangs SLC. The dryness of the countryside also struck me, because although I am originally from Australia (lots of desert there), I have never lived in a desert climate. It is strange for me to reconcile the dryness with the beauty of the snowy winter scenery.

If you like outdoor activites like hiking, biking, snow shoeing (sp?), skiing etc, then there are few other places you could choose to live that offer such easy access to such activities and the snow provides some of the best powder in the world.

I've also seen online that there are lots of interest groups, sporting groups and public activities that you could do, and where I would imagine your religion won't matter. The Botanical Gardens for example currently has listed an Art Glass in the Garden exhibit, Floral Arrangement classes, a Holiday Wreath Making workshop and a Holiday Arts and Crafts Fair. My father-in-law belongs to a local mountain biking group as well as riding on his own. I'm sure that you should be able to find activities around the area that match your interests. I can't believe you would feel excluded from them if you weren't of the LDS faith.

Of course, I can't speak exhaustively about "fitting in" or feeling comfortable there because I'm not living in Utah yet (currently in Virginia), but we are considering a move there for the new IMFT plant. Since following the discussions on this board I guess my main reservation would be whether I might find it harder for us to make friends there than if we were to move somewhere else. My guess is that is probably the case, but still not impossible if we make an effort.

Several people in this thread (and others) have commented on, or expressed concern about their children "fitting in". That would perhaps be my greatest concern for your family, but in my case it is a moot point since both my children are now living away from home in college. (They BTW think the idea of a move to Utah is great because they will get cheap and easy access to some skiing and boarding when they come home for visits!) As others have suggested in this thread, I think careful choice of neighborhood, school and sporting or after-school activities would hopefully enable them to make at least a few friends.

I guess overall it is a question of what factors are most important to you and your family for living a happy, healthy life. It would be a shame to rule out Utah (and being close to your brother's family) just because you "think" you might not be comfortable there. I don't know what line of work you are in, so perhaps moving-on is not easy, but you could always give it a 2 - 3 year trial. (Which is what a few of the others on this forum have said they are planning to do). From that perspective the "what if we don't like it or don't fit-in" fears might not seem such a big deterent.

[coolcats]

Aussie -- I think your attitude, concerns, and decision-making process are spot on. As for the churches issue -- there are a lot of chapels around. In other states, there would probably be as many church buildings but more diversity.

Lets do a little math. Utah has a population of about 2,400,000 people. If 60 percent (perhaps low) of those people are LDS, that means about 1,440,000 members. Each chapel usually houses 3 wards (congregations) of about 500 people each. That's 1500 people per building. That means that the LDS church needs 960 chapels in the state of Utah to serve the needs of its members.

As another poster pointed out -- is the Church just supposed to ignore the realities of its membership and not meet those needs. By the way, there are other church buildings here -- just not nearly as many as LDS chapels, but to criticize the LDS church for that is to ignore the state's history.

Also, I'm not sure about the "space needle" comments. Most chapels are built with a fairly conservative -- almost neo-puritin design. They do have steeples, but most churches of all denominations have those.

There are 10 temples (and two more under construction) serving the entire state of Utah. Temples are used for different purposes than weekly meeting houses.

Bottom line, is REGuy has his impression, and has a right to it. I can see where he is coming from. I would have the same questions. But I don't know if that concern is worth latching on to and judging a whole state by.

[chazcrew]

REguy, I wouldn't say it's a debate. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding your complaint, because it seems to be merely that there are too many Mormons in Utah for your taste, and they have the temerity to build chapels and temples in which to meet. What, exactly, are you suggesting be done about this?

I guess I'm just having a hard time taking this seriously. I'm not a skier, and yet here I am, in a state full of world-class ski resorts. That's pretty in-your-face, isn't it, building all those resorts to taunt those of us who don't ski. Why don't they just plant the runs over with trees so they can blend in with the rest of the mountain, rather than making them stick out like that? There's an entire ski culture that I'm not part of, not really even familiar with, except that my brother skis (he personally likes Alta), and I suppose I could even let it bother me so much I could refuse to live here. Better to live in another state, where skiing isn't such a religion.

I'm not trying to be flip, just attempting to show you why your arguments make no sense to me. I'm sorry you feel unable to live here, even though you like the state otherwise. Maybe this is a good time to remind you that the reason there are so many Mormons here is because they were run out of all their previous residences by people who also thought they were intolerable. So they come to the desert, work really hard to make it liveable, and then 150+ years later, along come people who find them intolerable and...want them to leave, or at least just fade into the woodwork. The irony is staggering.