Non-mormon family looking to relocate to Lehi (St. George, Washington: houses, to buy)

[coolcats]

Originally Posted by RCL

Coolcats,

I have read other forums besides this one on the internet that talk of the discrimination that goes on in Utah against non-Mormons. As far as the rest of your post, I understand that you are just on the defensive, as was Elder Shawn, which is totally expectable given the fact that there are folks like me are willing to stand up and speak the truth about what goes on here. (Maybe you and Elder Shawn are the same poster, who knows?)

Of course I realize that everything is what you make it. I overlook a lot that goes on here and stay content. Calling me angry is a bit unjustified, don't you think, since you've never met me...and you've never walked a mile in anyone else's shoes (much less mine). Saying that I "hate it so much" is putting words in my mouth.

As I read through all your posts here, reading your judgmentalism of others' posts, including mine, it makes me wonder what makes you think you're in charge?

Anyway, it doesn't bother me that you disagree with my points, it's a free country, and you can name call me and accuse me all you want, but the reality is that both Utah and Southern Idaho are very clique-ish places to live because of the LDS influence. Like I said, if someone non-LDS is willing to accept this and know what to watch out for, then they can find ways to enjoy their time here/there.

I said you had an angry tone. That is not the same as saying you were angry, though I think you probably are. You choice of words makes it pretty obvious to anyone who reads your posts. I didn’t put words in your mouth. I said you “SEEM to hate it so much.” I bet if we took a poll, 99 percent of the other posters here would also say you write with an angry tone and seem to hate it in Utah.

Face it you have a chip on your shoulder. For some reason you don’t like LDS people and are bent on making sure the world knows it. If it were any other criteria it would be called racism, anti-semitism, or any other of a number if “isms”.

What other posts have I exhibited “judgmentalism” (not an actual word in the English language by the way), except perhaps for one other post above where the guy bashes Utah based on google ads?

[Elder_Shawn]

Originally Posted by RCL

Coolcats,

I have read other forums besides this one on the internet that talk of the discrimination that goes on in Utah against non-Mormons. As far as the rest of your post, I understand that you are just on the defensive, as was Elder Shawn, which is totally expectable given the fact that there are folks like me are willing to stand up and speak the truth about what goes on here. (Maybe you and Elder Shawn are the same poster, who knows?)

Of course I realize that everything is what you make it. I overlook a lot that goes on here and stay content. Calling me angry is a bit unjustified, don't you think, since you've never met me...and you've never walked a mile in anyone else's shoes (much less mine). Saying that I "hate it so much" is putting words in my mouth.

As I read through all your posts here, reading your judgmentalism of others' posts, including mine, it makes me wonder what makes you think you're in charge?

Anyway, it doesn't bother me that you disagree with my points, it's a free country, and you can name call me and accuse me all you want, but the reality is that both Utah and Southern Idaho are very clique-ish places to live because of the LDS influence. Like I said, if someone non-LDS is willing to accept this and know what to watch out for, then they can find ways to enjoy their time here/there.

Very sad individual. Maybe we can all get mud on us now. Weee!

[danco]

Check out Southernutah.com for some interesting perspectives.

[DP525]

Thanks, Living in St. George.

That is exactly why I am not moving to Lehi in Utah County. We are looking for a house in south Salt Lake County. I have read several estimates that put the Salt Lake County LDS population at 56%. I have heard that Draper might even be less than that. I think if we have any chance at all of enjoying a somewhat normal life and "fitting in", we have to stay out of Utah County and it 87% LDS population.

I have nothing against the LDS church and Mormons in general. I am basically not very religious. To each their own. But their culture in Utah is very overpowering for a non-member. And if we find that even in Salt Lake County we can't fit in, I will move in two years. That is what I owe my company for relocating me. But I really hope we like it there. The job opportunity I have is great and the city seems so nice. I wouldn't mind staying awhile.

[coolcats]

Posts like that from Living in Saint George do illustrate a problem for some people. I honestly think the exclusion is not intentional for the most part. I did not grow up in Utah, and only moved back last year after a five-year absence.

The LDS culture is strong and can be overwhelming, especially for someone coming in from out of state. I think the LDS wards (based on neighborhood boundaries) present a natural social setting for many people, especially young moms.

The extent of integration probably depends on the percent of LDS and to some extent luck of the draw. Hopefully as more and more people move into the state that will change, because I do not think experiences such as the one described are healthy or improve the quality of life for anyone.
in

[DP525]

Coolcats,

Could it be that if you are part of the club, you can't see the problem? I see a recurring theme on this thread. The Mormons deny or minimize the problem, but the non-Mormons seem to relate similar stories of this "unintentional" exclusion.

I am white and am sure the Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks who live on my street are not discriminated against or shunned. They would probably tell a different story. In the four years I have lived at my current address, have I had any of my neighbors inside my house who aren't white? No. Is it intentional? No. Do I smile and wave and say "hello" to them when I see them? Yes. Whether intentional or not, racial differences separate us just as religious differences seem to do in Utah. People will always tend to associate with people who are similar to them. It is human nature.

I think I am about to learn what life is like for my non-white neighbors. Not hostile. Just excluded.

[living in st george]

What you say is true. But I think they know they are excluding.... And in a way, they are letting the outsiders know they are not welcome. Once the housing market crumbles, when the interest rates climb, and the people can't afford the houses, there will be many areas that will be devistated by the masses of foreclosures, and the people who will move out of the area and back to where they came from - if they can afford to.

If they didn't want outsiders moving in, they shouldn't have kept building houses......

[RCL]

Originally Posted by DP525

Coolcats,

Could it be that if you are part of the club, you can't see the problem? I see a recurring theme on this thread. The Mormons deny or minimize the problem, but the non-Mormons seem to relate similar stories of this "unintentional" exclusion.

I am white and am sure the Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks who live on my street are not discriminated against or shunned. They would probably tell a different story. In the four years I have lived at my current address, have I had any of my neighbors inside my house who aren't white? No. Is it intentional? No. Do I smile and wave and say "hello" to them when I see them? Yes. Whether intentional or not, racial differences separate us just as religious differences seem to do in Utah. People will always tend to associate with people who are similar to them. It is human nature.

I think I am about to learn what life is like for my non-white neighbors. Not hostile. Just excluded.

DP525 you have articulated exactly what I logged into this forum this morning to say. Thank you.

I do not hate mormons as I have been accused, on the contrary I strongly support the rights of anyone to believe (or not believe) in any religion, and I expect my same rights to be respected (and that's where the problem lies in Utah).

I'm sure people like coolcats and Elder Shawn mean well, but since they are LDS, they are better qualified to give a perspective of what it's like to be LDS and living in Utah...not the other way around. And, naturally, they will be on the defensive if/when the issue of bigotry is brought up because it is a very sensitive subject...no matter how subtle or unintentional it may be. (And I'm NOT calling either a bigot, I'm just stating a fact and agreeing with DP525 who says, "Is it intentional? No.")

But *unintentional* is not the same thing as *non-existant* and again, therein lies the crux of the issue for a non-LDS person in Utah.

I have family who is LDS and over the years I've learned that LDS is more than just another sect, it's a respectable culture and a noble way of life, but on the other hand it is very closed to outsiders (unless/until you want to join) ...I will reference the Amish, but only as an illustration (the two are very different in most other regards, but the sense of exclusivism is similar). I won't go into specifics here but anytime you have any belief system that operates under the assumption that it is the only true/correct belief system and all others are flawed or somehow not as valid (if at all), then the fact is you're going to have exclusivism. Again, just stating general fact of human nature (and there are many different belief systems that operate this way, not just LDS). And my bringing it up is not to engage in a theological discussion, rather only to point out that a fundamental difference in belief systems can be a source of conflict when you are living in a state where one belief system is in the majority. In Utah you have to agree to disagree, and that is also sometimes not easy when people believe passionately in something and want someone else to experience it for themselves. But, not every belief system is right for everyone and this is where the chalk-line is blurred in Utah. LDS people are not bad people at all, just human like everyone else. And as DP525 stated, "People will always tend to associate with people who are similar to them. It is human nature."

Regarding life in Utah, there are also published articles on the web from reliable media sources. Issues such as religious discrimination in employment and housing rentals (among other subjects) are discussed, as well as sometimes neighborhood tension between LDS and non-LDS people, which can be more prevalent in smaller neighborhoods, for example, if there is any type of conflict between your non-LDS kids and other (LDS) kids...kids are kids and they'll get into their normal conflicts here, but the religion issue plays a big part. And as living in st george said, they do not invite your kids to birthday parties, or go into your house/yard to play with your kids, etc.

Just go to the search on google or yahoo, type in different phrases such as "religious discrimination in Utah" or "non-mormon living in Utah", and other such phrases that would pertain to this discussion and it will pull up several results of articles, even including major newspapers in Utah. Apparently, on this forum you are not allowed to post links or make reference to copyrighted material so I can't post more.

You can also look on craigslist and see what people may be saying on any given day. There is more chaff to get through on craigslist, but there are also valid points of view being discussed there (in spite of the odd "loony" poster).

[peanut06]

I have grown up in the South, and have lived in the Northeast and in Utah (Salt Lake area) I found kids to be kids.

Regardless of the religion, there are kids with bad behaviors and kids with good behaviors, and that doesn't exclude the parents either.

I have seen Baptist kids suround non-baptisit kids, (mainly the LDS, Jewish, Cathloic and nonpracticiting) and condem them to hell with their parents standing right there. I have had Baptist parents refuse their children to babysit or play with others because they are LDS, Jewish, Catholic, Muslim. ( never saw that of an LDS, Catholic or Jewish parent. )

Find a good neighbor ood where the people act on the priciples taught by the golden rule. NOT the junk yard rule.

I have very good LDS neighbors that I couldn't live with out. They are there when ever I need them and don't push at all. They are by far the most active with their children and most positive and forgiving if one of my children get out of line.

Bottom line don't judge just because of a religion. Look at the person/people and know who ever they are, what ever they claim as their religious belief, they are responsible for their actions. NOT the religion.

Originally Posted by DP525

Thanks for your input, Shawn. I am really hoping the whole issue is just overblown. I grew up in small town Wyoming with a fairly large LDS population. They were all great people and I had several close LDS friends.

Any non-LDS with kids care to chime in?

[Elder_Shawn]

I'm happy to see we've all calmed down a bit. It's funny how a few remarks can really get people fired up. I've had the unique opportunity to be a minority and LDS growing up in a small Utah town (90% LDS / 99% White). I have lived in New England and vacationed all over the world (Asia and Europe), so I'm not the "isolated" Mormon with my head in the sand. My wife is from the South so we visit there at least once a month. People are people and they tend to stick together. Some people prefer the same college football teams and hence gravitate to one another. Some of my best friends are not LDS and we have a great time talking about how living in Utah is weird, but I do not have a single non-LDS friend that wants to move after they have lived here for more than 5 years. My wife couldn't stand Utah until about this year.

I do see RCL's point now more clearly. Anytime you are a minority (religiously or racially) you can't expect to immediately be welcomed in with open arms. Get to know your neighbors and invite them into your home. Meet the parents your kids are playing with. I've spent a majority of my adult life in a college setting so diversity has always been readily available and acceptable. Now that I'm in the Pharma industry our office looks like the UN. WE have people from all over the place and somehow we all get along for the most part.