Questions about being Non-LDS in Utah (Kearns: living, shop, statistics)

[Madreof3]

Sorry, "Holier than thou"

[jest721]

I repeat that I understand it is a personal choice, but I still don't see anything approaching logical rationale. I am not talking about shooting up heroin, or giving alcohol to a child; I'm talking about coffee, hardly the same thing.
But, if you stand by your statements, then let me ask: Do you teach your children about sex? drugs? alcohol? Or do you just ignore those issues? It seems to me it is dangerous to let children grow up completely ignorant of things; you can only protect them for so long. There seems to be this irrational fear that everyone is out to get you because you have a stricter moral code. I just can't grasp that you would alienate neighbors over something as benign as drinking coffee.

[shanenlori]

The mormons believe in a law called the Word of Wisdom. There is a great discussion about it in the Mormon Ediquete thread about 3 pages back on the Utah forum. It may answer some of your question.

I think that smithmi is saying that if his children see someone drink coffee, it sets an example, and they may think it is ok.

I feel that as a parent it is my responsibility to teach the facts, and help them learn it is a bad choice for them and the reasons why, but a bad choice does not mean a person is bad. I would let my children play with someone that drinks coffee or beer (as long as the situation was safe), because in life, not everyone will always have their same values. If I have given tham a strong foundation, I feel confident that they will make the correct choice.

I don't try to shelter my children, (as I was growing up in Utah). I do talk openly with them about alchohol, drugs, smoking, and sex. If I don't address these issue they will find the information from somewhere. I want my children to hear it from me and know my view points and feeling on the subjects. I want them to know thay can come to me with questions or concern. I think there is an attitude that if you keep the kids from it then the problem goes away. I feel the opposite is true.

[jest721]

Originally Posted by shanenlori

... If I have given tham a strong foundation, I feel confident that they will make the correct choice.

I don't try to shelter my children...I do talk openly with them about alchohol, drugs, smoking, and sex. If I don't address these issue they will find the information from somewhere. I want my children to hear it from me ... I think there is an attitude that if you keep the kids from it then the problem goes away. I feel the opposite is true.

Your post made sense to me. I suppose I'm just curious about a different view. You seem open-minded and intelliget, and most importantly you trust your children. This says a lot about you as a parent. But, you just don't seem controversial enough, you seem almost, rational?

[Elder_Shawn]

I grew up in a home where coffee, tea, and alcohol were common place. My parents are baptized LDS (not active), but "I" always knew those items were against the Word of Wisdom. I've never ingested those drinks due to my personal beliefs, but I don't look down upon those who do in moderation. Alcohol abuse is entirely a different story. My brother and I served LDS missions by our own choice. My dad even told us that we should finish college rather than losing two years of our lives. Turned out he was wrong!

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by jest721

I repeat that I understand it is a personal choice, but I still don't see anything approaching logical rationale. I am not talking about shooting up heroin, or giving alcohol to a child; I'm talking about coffee, hardly the same thing.

On the scale of dangerous substances, no, coffee is nowhere near the same as heroin or alcohol; however, the mere fact that it may be used openly in your home can be objectionable to parents, who do not want their children exposed to that attitude. For many, even seemingly minor issues are nothing more than “allowing the nose of camel under the tent.” Now, throw in the fact that coffee is a prohibited substance for religious reasons, and I am sure you see the problem. Allow me to pose this question; would you feel right about your family eating hot dogs in front of your Jewish neighbor’s child while he or she munched on something kosher?

Scirocco22 states, “I grew up with the understanding that coffee is an adult drink. My parents drank coffee --still do-- and never offered it to me or to any child. I can clearly remember that growing up.”

I need to address this also. Studies prove that children are significantly more likely to use products such as cigarettes, alcohol, tobacco, or coffee if the substances are used in the homes of their parents. They watch mom and dad, and if its acceptable behavior for them, it becomes acceptable for the child. Kids learn from adults.

[jest721]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

.. would you feel right about your family eating hot dogs in front of your Jewish neighbor’s child while he or she munched on something kosher?

I don't mean to be trite, but are you serious? If my children had a jewish friend over for a barbecue I would certainly throw some all beef franks on the grill alongside the burgers, pork franks, and brats. I may even want a glass of milk with my burger (meat and dairy!?!) but I would certainly offer the children some kool-aid or sweet tea. And of course the salt and pickles would be kosher.
My point is, I would certainly accomodate any dietary needs they had, but if their parents refused to allow them to come to the bbq because we were having pork franks? That seems ridiculous.

[scirocco22]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

I need to address this also. Studies prove that children are significantly more likely to use products such as cigarettes, alcohol, tobacco, or coffee if the substances are used in the homes of their parents. They watch mom and dad, and if its acceptable behavior for them, it becomes acceptable for the child. Kids learn from adults.

I stand corrected. That's absolutely true and makes sense. (..although my brother grew up in the same household with the same parents and doesn't drink coffee.)

I guess the Mormons I've made friends with take a slightly more open-minded approach similar to that of which Lori describes. Oh, jeez, I hope that's not offensive ...not to accuse some of you as being narrow-minded but that's the way I'm beginning to sound --I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by jest721

I don't mean to be trite, but are you serious? If my children had a jewish friend over for a barbecue I would certainly throw some all beef franks on the grill alongside the burgers, pork franks, and brats. I may even want a glass of milk with my burger (meat and dairy!?!) but I would certainly offer the children some kool-aid or sweet tea. And of course the salt and pickles would be kosher.
My point is, I would certainly accomodate any dietary needs they had, but if their parents refused to allow them to come to the bbq because we were having pork franks? That seems ridiculous.

I'm with ya again, jest.

--'rocco

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by jest721

I don't mean to be trite, but are you serious?

Like a heart attack.

I would certainly accomodate any dietary needs they had, but if their parents refused to allow them to come to the bbq because we were having pork franks? That seems ridiculous.

It seems ridiculous to you, because you see it through your eyes. From the perspective of others, it is a matter of eternity, and such matters are not to be taken lightly.

In my case, the accommodation of the religious requirements of the Jewish child would be to ensure “all” items are kosher. You will note I used religious requirement vs. dietary needs. My perspective tells me this is a religious matter and not a matter of diet because the child may be diabetic or allergic to some food item.

Let me see whether I can give you another perspective. For many, just the appearance of wrongdoing, is not acceptable. For this reason, I will not sit in or around the bar of restaurant drinking a soda while waiting for a table or drink hot chocolate in public, because someone who knows I am LDS might mistake what I am doing for drinking liquor or coffee. None of this is a problem for me. It is second nature, and I don’t even consciously think about it. I know you don’t understand this attitude, and you probably think it is ridiculous, but it is a reality nonetheless.

[jest721]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

In my case, the accommodation of the religious requirements of the Jewish child would be to ensure “all” items are kosher. You will note I used religious requirement vs. dietary needs. My perspective tells me this is a religious matter and not a matter of diet because the child may be diabetic or allergic to some food item.

Let me see whether I can give you another perspective. For many, just the appearance of wrongdoing, is not acceptable. For this reason, I will not sit in or around the bar of restaurant drinking a soda while waiting for a table or drink hot chocolate in public, because someone who knows I am LDS might mistake what I am doing for drinking liquor or coffee. None of this is a problem for me. It is second nature, and I don’t even consciously think about it. I know you don’t understand this attitude, and you probably think it is ridiculous, but it is a reality nonetheless.

As far as religious food requirements, I would certainly offer kosher alternatives to any other food that may be served. But, we are not really talking about that. An accurate comparison would be if your children came over to eat and all the food in the house was coffee, liqour, and heroin, and illicit sex. That is hardly the case, and usually I only drink coffee in the morning anyway.
As for your second point, WOW! I assume that mormons don't have coffee cups for drinking hot chocolate in their homes because a paronoid neighbor may rat them out to your church? Do you think God knows what is in your cup? Do you think he cares what your friends think you are drinking?
I am not unfamiliar with religion, and I am familiar with the idea that you should avoid the appearance of wrongdoing. But my understanding is that it is between you and God, not you and your friends.