Downtown Shooting (Ogden, Francis: credit, home, schools)

[cottonwood2420]

At 6:45 P.M. tonight a man dressed in a black trench coat entered the Trolley Square mall and opened fire killing at least 5. Here is the full story at ksl.com:
http://www.ksl.com/images/dot1.gif

[ArrowThruTheMoon]

Dare I say - I'm not suprised that a disgrunted and confused 18 year old Bosinan kid would resort to killing people randomly to make a name for himself and for attention.

I served in the Balkan's war and in my experience, Serbians and Bosnians are way too trigger happy. The answer to their frustration of confused national identity and often very racists viewpoint is shooting and guns.

My heart goes out to the victims' families, and I just hope that their memory will be the center of this tragedy and we'll fast forget this scum (the shooter) ever existed, not giving him what he wanted.

[cottonwood2420]

Well if an off duty Ogden Utah police officer hadnt of been there having a valentines dinner with his wife then the shooter could have killed many more becuase he distracted him with gunfire until the SLC PD arrived.

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by cottonwood2420

Well if an off duty Ogden Utah police officer hadnt of been there having a valentines dinner with his wife then the shooter could have killed many more becuase he distracted him with gunfire until the SLC PD arrived.

I haven't read that twist on the story, yet, but it does bring up something interesting. I know that Utah is extremely liberal when it comes down to issuing concealed weapons permits. I know there was an angry debate over the fact that the law allows permit holders to be on school property with their weapons. I am also aware that the LDS Church issued a statement declaring their properties off limits to weapons in keeping with the laws language. I always hear the warning that the streets will be violent when so many people are running around with CCW permits. OK, where were they in this incident?

I think there are probably a lot less permit holders out there than people believe. I also think that if there were any in the mall, they did the right thing and hunkered down with their families and were prepared to use their guns as a last ditch defense. Kudos to the OD Ogden officer; he took a real risk. Not only was he outgunned by the suspect, but he took the real chance of being mistaken for a bad guy and being shot by SLCPD. Misidentification tragedies occur all the time in law enforcement.

I am also going to reevaluate my own attitude. I don't normally carry off duty, unless I am going to Sodom or Gomorrah, uh, I mean San Francisco or Oakland. I would never have thought about carrying in SLC.

[Elder_Shawn]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

I haven't read that twist on the story, yet, but it does bring up something interesting. I know that Utah is extremely liberal when it comes down to issuing concealed weapons permits. I know there was an angry debate over the fact that the law allows permit holders to be on school property with their weapons. I am also aware that the LDS Church issued a statement declaring their properties off limits to weapons in keeping with the laws language. I always hear the warning that the streets will be violent when so many people are running around with CCW permits. OK, where were they in this incident?

I think there are probably a lot less permit holders out there than people believe. I also think that if there were any in the mall, they did the right thing and hunkered down with their families and were prepared to use their guns as a last ditch defense. Kudos to the OD Ogden officer; he took a real risk. Not only was he outgunned by the suspect, but he took the real chance of being mistaken for a bad guy and being shot by SLCPD. Misidentification tragedies occur all the time in law enforcement.

I am also going to reevaluate my own attitude. I don't normally carry off duty, unless I am going to Sodom or Gomorrah, uh, I mean San Francisco or Oakland. I would never have thought about carrying in SLC.

Many people that have the permits never carry. In my opinion most people get them now while they are easier to get or still available.

[cas2006]

I am not certain of this, but I believe I read somewhere that no one has ever been killed (bad guy or good guy) by a CW permit holder in Utah. Not sure anyone has even been wounded. SargeantL is right...first priority is to protect your family. The Odgen police officer knew what to do and how to do it. I would not have wanted to depend on some of the CW permit holders that I know to do the same thing. Debates always raging on gun control, here and everywhere else, I guess. I can't figure out why a concealed weapon is different on school grounds than in a stadium of 40,000 people. We work hard to protect our kids, as we should. Who's to protect us from them?

[UtahRaptor]

I'm a concealed firearm permit holder, and I carry everywhere I legally can. My kids need me to come home alive, and when I am out with them it is my responsibility to protect them.

There are laws against murder, yet the muslim kid still murdered 5 people in the mall. So, if murder is illegal, and it carries the potential of the death penalty if convicted, what makes anybody think that there is any anti-gun law that will stop or deter a criminal from using a gun? In other words, the criminals will/do ignore gun laws already.

Trolley Square is reportedly posted as "No Guns", and many people who have concealed firearms permits will obey such signs. So, there were no armed citizens there to defend themselves or their families other than one off-duty officer.

That officer was reportedly very underprepared. He had one revolver with 6 shots, and no reloads. I have to give him huge credit for engaging the shooter with only that revolver! He is a hero who saved a lot of lives.

Which brings me to the point that as with virtually all mass public shootings, the killer continues his murderous spree until somebody with a gun shows up to stop him. Whether that is a police officer or another citizen with a gun.

I carry every time I am at my kids' schools, at the mall, or out to dinner. I intend to continue. Because the crazies and the terrorists don't advertise ahead of time where they will attack.

[abnelson]

I took a big "gulp" when I heard about this incident. My husband and I had our anniversary dinner at Rodizio's (where the Officer was) 2 days prior to this. I thought "Wow! Just a matter of timing...you never know." And then I thought of those who had been there right before the shooting, maybe just coming out the door as the shooter pulled up in his car...and then of course those who were there and involved. That was/is so sad!
It reminds us we should NEVER take the people in our lives for granted! Or waste our OWN life and the time we have here.
This isn't a new thought to me as I work on our ambulance as an EMT and often see how fleeting life can be. But we rarely have acts of such violence or terror in our quiet berg. My heart really goes out to those that were there. And God Bless that Officer for stepping in!
I don't know what I think about carrying guns...I've never liked hand guns, but it does make you stop and think a little.
I have one question (or 2) - if a facility is posted "No Guns" (obviously terrorists aren't going to pay any attention,) but apparently off-duty officers are exempt? It seems like I heard once that they're always supposed to carry their weapon...or is it their choice?

[cottonwood2420]

Yes your right, it just shows how important everyday is.

[UtahRaptor]

Abnelson, strictly speaking, the officer was in violation of the posted "no guns" policy at Trolley Square. He carries a concealed firearm under the same limitations as other non-law enforcement citizens when he is off duty.

That being said, it is not illegal to ignore such a sign in Utah. If one is discovered to be carrying in such a place, he can be asked to leave. If he refuses to leave, he is then in violation of trespass laws.