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Old 02-07-2009, 04:18 PM
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
515 posts, read 2,036,372 times
Reputation: 297


Originally Posted by Cycle View Post
I also encourage the brutality because I think that people should read about what people are like in Utah
Not sure how you define "brutality", but I guess to you it means "sharing a different view point". Most of these people you are referring to in this thread specifically expressed compassion for you & what you have been through, yet they are "brutal" because they also offered another perspective.

But you're right, it's good people reading this thread will get to see that we are all a bunch of beasts.
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:53 PM
287 posts, read 638,580 times
Reputation: 114
Well Cycle,
You asked everyone not to disagree with you. I honestly don't think anyone ever said, "No that didn't happen to you." We have tried to commisserate and encourage and make suggestions for you to break through the ice of Utah Valley. Never once did we hear from you, "That's a good idea" or "I should try that" or "Hmm, I didn't know that about Mormons. Thanks for the info." We only heard "thank you" when we validated you. I think some people just lost patience with your inability to admit there might be other opinions or other perspectives to your situation.

My opinion at this point is that most people reading this will be able to see that the fault isn't 100% with all your neighbors and that many of those neighbors are completely innocent of the accusations you are making. For example, the people that didn't wave back may have been preoccupied with serious concerns in their own lives. Maybe it was simply time for all the folks at the park to go home and fix dinner or get their kids to bed or whatever. Maybe when you asked the neighbors to let you have some time to get settled, they took that as a rejection of their offers and they are honoring your request to be left alone. Most people reading this will be able to see through your complaints. Honestly do you really think the 10 or so of us who have been engaged in these posts are really representative of all Utahns? I am just shaking right now because I am so angry at all your put downs. We have all tried to be civil to you until you pushed your negativity to some breaking points. I have reached mine. You encouraged the brutality??? And how is that a Christian value you say you possess and teach your children? We tried. We really did and you may have run out of chances for people to listen and believe you because you have revealed yourself as someone who is mean spirited and twisting the situation to fit your agenda.

I'm not sorry for trying to help you. I'm only sorry for you because unless you are able to accept that other people are human and actually might have an ounce of decency and compassion for you, you WILL continue to be miserable. And maybe that's all you want anyway..to get lots of sympathy and attention for being miserable. Well I'm DONE giving it. Lots of people responded to the e-mail I sent them about you saying "How sad and hard for her", and "Thanks for the reminder. I'll try to be more aware of the feelings of my non-LDS neighbors." Well, I'm about to write them all back and tell them to consider this a case of the typical close-minded non-Mormon who only wants to put us all down. And don't worry about it because ALL non-Mormons (except katydid and birdbrained and a few others) are like this. They ALL only want to bash Mormons -so just ignore them. And that statement would be as false as yours indicating that what is said on this board is what Utahns are really like. I get the feeling you WANT all this rejection so you can carry your gigantic chip around on your sore shoulders.

I may be opinionated but I rarely lose it like I am right now. Why do I care? Because you are being categorically unfair to a whole people and culture. You don't know the damage YOU might be doing and the hurt YOU might be causing. Isn't there something in Christ's teaching about motes and beams?

One last suggestion. I've been thinking about a book you should read, "Three Cups of Tea". A guy (and no he isn't Mormon!) so completely different than the people in a village in Pakistan ends up dedicating his whole life to helping them and making contributions that will have life changing value for them. He doesn't criticize or assume they are out to get him. He accepts their help in recovering from a disasterous climb up K-2 that nearly killed him. He recognizes the good in those people instead of shutting them all out. He makes attempts to communicate with them and develops a deep love and appreciation for them despite the MAJOR differences in their beliefs and lifestyles. It really puts important things in perspective and makes all these little social hurts we go through seem petty and small. There IS another way to view your experience and I hope you figure that out sooner than later so you can spare yourself some grief.

Last edited by carlymac; 02-07-2009 at 07:52 PM..
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Old 02-07-2009, 07:33 PM
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
515 posts, read 2,036,372 times
Reputation: 297
carlymac, don't let what she says upset you. You are dealing with a very disturbed person here.
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Old 02-07-2009, 07:54 PM
287 posts, read 638,580 times
Reputation: 114
I'm beginning to see that. How dumb was I?
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Old 02-07-2009, 07:58 PM
Location: Cedar City, Utah
4,283 posts, read 7,942,670 times
Reputation: 1686
well as the post says...can we be allowed to share our experiences....well we certainly can. We just got back from St. George. We bought a house there. After we closed on the home, we were there getting things done on it, painting, cleaning etc. We had numerous people come over and welcome us to the neighborhood. Not once did someone ask if were were LDS or not. I am sure they could care less. Yes we are lds but we didnt offer the information. Were they LDS? I have no clue, nor do I care. I enjoy people and getting to know everyone. Very friendly in St. George. I can't wait to move there.

Just because we express our opinions on here, doesn't mean we are negative as it has been mentioned or brutal for that matter. Just because we don't agree with the post, does not mean we are negative. No we are not trying to convince you that Utah is a great place, because we know it is.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:02 PM
Location: Cedar City, Utah
4,283 posts, read 7,942,670 times
Reputation: 1686
Originally Posted by carlymac View Post
I'm beginning to see that. How dumb was I?
Carlymac - you know its a great place, most everyone does. Once people move here they found out just how nice it is. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. I haven't always lived in Utah. I moved from California and was welcomed with open arms when I moved there. I was sad to move way, can't wait to get back. Most people in most states are friendly. There are a select few that aren't.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:08 PM
Location: Cedar City, Utah
4,283 posts, read 7,942,670 times
Reputation: 1686
Originally Posted by Cycle View Post

(as well as ex-Utahn's (sp) who haven't lived here for years), the good, the bad and the ugly, all these negative posts that have been read so many times are really leaving a good impression with people wanting to learn something about Utah. Thanks for the encouragement though, that was really very nice and unexpected.
funny who are all these people that havent lived here for years. I lived in Utah for 27 years and just moved away 1 1/2 years ago. Looks like the only one leaving the negative posts is you and sarcastic ones. Hope you find much happiness....oh and thats not sarcastic
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:21 PM
Location: The other side of the mountain
2,416 posts, read 5,593,506 times
Reputation: 1109
I have moved several times within Utah and NEVER ONCE was asked whether I was mormon or not!

I am also a redhead and well endowed, so of course that must be a dead giveaway, huh? Of course LDS women couldn't ever have red hair or a big chest... That comment refers to a statement she made in her very first post stating that she knows that her neighbors can tell she isn't LDS just by looking at her.

Thank you, Carlymac, for remembering that she doesn't speak for all of us non-LDS!

This is the post that I had deleted a couple of posts back. Cycle said that she got to read it before I took it off. I just thought I would step back and let it go, but after the last post about brutality, I just can't.

Here goes..my deleted post from a couple days ago
As I am pretty sure you are speaking to me, only due to the fact that the only time you have responded to me is to criticize, I will speak this one last time. Never was it ever told to you that there is nothing wrong with Utah and it must be you. It was acknoweledged that Utah county CAN be cliquey, it was also stated that other parts are not so much. That alone tells you that yes, we understand it can be like that, we are so sorry that you are caught in a place you are not happy, but rather than casting ALL the blame on those Utah Valley Mormons, is there something that you, too, could do to change what is happening? There are always, yes, ALWAYS two sides to every story. But by continuing this thread, you are also making people see that the attitude that one brings has a great bearing on winning friends and influencing people. As far as my own words and how I treat people, they are one and the same. My Christian values are quite intact, thank you. Loving thy neighbor goes both ways, you know. If your neighbors are doing wrong by you (and I am not saying they are not), then you would think for YOU to do the right thing would be to turn the other cheek, wave and be friendly no matter what. As outgoing as you said you are, I am sure that wouldn't be that hard for you to do. If they don't like you-who cares? It is their loss. I don't think any of us on here have anything to be ashamed of or embarrassed about. However if you think we do then the following quote from your post makes you no better than us: *What I do know is that it is obvious you are 'righteous' Christians in your espoused values of understanding, compassion and kindness but that your enacted values are condemnation, ridicule and pettiness, basically you all talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Take a look at your own words and reactions, what do you see?* As you said you will not be posting anymore, I shall not expect a reply. That is okay. In any place you move in this vast country, you will be an outsider to their world. Remember that.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:30 PM
70 posts, read 169,221 times
Reputation: 67
I do not understand why you got so upset, you are the one who stated that these message boards can be brutal, I just stated that I welcome it...Why is it so impossible for all of you to admit that this could be happening exactly the way it is happening and that maybe, just maybe there are some mormons (please note the SOME as I have repeatedly stated) out there who are cliquish and clannish and they are treating me and my family like we don't exist just because we are not mormon(as I have stated repeatedly it is my neighborhood, not ALL of Utah and not ALL mormons, did you get it this time?)

Being in denial is not going to fix anything, change anything or improve the situation...I have read enough of these posts to know that I am not the only one going through this yet a few of you want to get on here and give me suggestions on what to do differently even though I have said repeatedly that I still wave at everyone, I attempt to make conversation, I have taken meals to the sick and have gone to neighborhood get togethers. I am as nice as I can be and a good neighbor even though I don't get it back because I have to live with what I do, not anyone else. It would just be nice if all the suggestions and perspectives you are giving to me could be given to the people who are behaving this way, instead you all just victimize the victim and make up allowances and excuses for the perpetrators. Again, typical of all the other people who try to discuss their experiences that don't fit in with YOUR experiences.

As I said in my original post, it seems like every time someone gets on here to talk about their negative experiences in Utah, they get attacked, and funny enough it is always by this same group of people. It is interesting to see that all of you are listing each other as friends in your profile. Why can't you all go gang up on someone else and let this post be? Allow others who have had the same experiences to post because your attacks, manipulations, taking things out of context, silent snubs and righteous indignation is getting tiresome.
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:47 PM
70 posts, read 169,221 times
Reputation: 67
Please get off this thread!
After being called shallow, judgmental, negative, looking for trouble, told to calm down and get a grip, irrational, bitten heads off, exaggerating, condescending, passive-aggressive, told that if I don’t like it to move, told to quit complaining, told I am acting as if I am doing the world a favor, told to pick a new neighborhood and move on, told I can’t comprehend what has been written, that I am unable to get little details right, called melodramatic, that I am blatantly immature, fallacious, mean spirited, I am now being told that I am being categorically unfair to a whole people and culture and that I am disturbed. And yes, you may have put some supportive words into your posts, but when you throw out hidden insults, it completely negates the positive comments, it just looks like you are trying to be supportive while getting your jabs in.

I asked repeatedly that you not disparage me because of my experiences, that I was very aware not all LDS/Mormons behave in this way, but the ones in my neighborhood do. I made it clear that I have Mormon friends from back in Kansas that can’t believe we are being treated this way but aren’t surprised by it. I have Mormon friends in Sandy and West Jordon who say there are some extremist LDS factions in Utah Valley, and they think it is a great idea for me to try and get my story out there so that people who are not LDS moving to the area will steer clear of the extremist pockets. And yes every Mormon who I have spoken to outside of my neighborhood about what is going on says it doesn’t surprise them at all because the LDS “down there” don’t want anything to do with “non-believers” as they might rub off on them. So stop with the generalizations and accusations, I have made it clear that I do not think all Mormons are like this, and I don’t believe that all of Utah is like this and never said it. Look below at the list of generalizations most of you have made that has turned this into another us vs them post…Thanks to all of you for making this into something it wasn’t supposed to be…

I am not LDS but I get really agitated when people come on this forum to mormon bash.
This is a bigger issue than Mormonism
Not just those bashing mormons
Mormons must be jerks
Mormons dig up the dead and baptize them
I hate mormons
The mormon mafia kills people that refuse to convert
No I don’t think that mormons are nice people
Not all mormons are out to get you
Not all mormons hate you
If you move to Utah expecting bad things to happen they will happen
Sometimes mormons are jerks, sometimes they are purposefully mean, sometimes they are ignorantly mean.
All LDS are rude just like the ones they have met
Oh those Mormons are exclusive
You’ve met rude mormons
I walk down the street and mormons just scowl at me they all hate me
Mormons don’t have any special awareness
Every rude person you meet is mormon
Every mormon you meet is rude
Ignorant mormons
Mormons ARE guilty of…not RSVPing
Mormons are guilty of perhaps being more self centered
Mormons from Utah County especially are guilty of globbing together
LDS people are not inherently bad, mean, exclusive
It comes off rude and exclusive when we cling so closely together with our LDS peers
LDS kids can be weird by the world’s standards
I’m sure any LDS person would agree with me
There probably are some very ignorant LDS people
Their kids couldn’t play with non LDS kids
That kind of behavior is exclusive to LDS people.
Like some people seem to generally dislike Mormons
I have met some really decent and great LDS people
Yes if your neighbors are snooty Mormons then you will be shunned
Are you guys stuck-up mormons
You perceive as intolerable Mormons
All mormons are intolerable
It’s not just a Mormon thing
Mormons don’t own Utah but you can’t blame them for being clannish
Utah Valley Mormons are hateful and mean
Are LDS people really this mean and exclusive
LDS people are more and more looked at as exclusive and snooty
It is a Mormon thing
It’s a Mormon thing
In your zeal to prove just how rude and arrogant mormons are
Told the world that you had the truth about mormons
Evil, inhospitable nature of the state
ALL non-Mormons are like this
ALL only want to bash Mormons
Categorically unfair to a whole people and culture
All the blame on those Utah Valley Mormons
Utah county can be cliquey

(try replacing the word Mormon with 'blacks', 'mexicans', 'women', 'handicapped', what do you see and how does that make you feel)

And before you pick my posts apart these are the things I said

It is the LDS issue (in my neighborhood)
Those LDS people in Utah Valley are crazy (a quote from an LDS coworker)

A quote from my second post:
Let me reiterate, not all mormons behave this way, it is not an LDS wide behavior, but there are some in the LDS church who are extremists and will make it clear that if you are not one of us then you are beneath us and don't deserve to be treated in a civil manner. These pockets of extremists do exist and I just would like people to be aware it could happen to them, it is cruel and unjust, especially to the children...It is not called being over-sensitive, it is called being treated like dirt just because I do not believe in their religion...It hurts.

Another quote:
“I work very hard not to allow the behavior they are suffering here to color their perception of the LDS religion as a whole because we understand that it is our specific neighborhood that has extremist LDS”

Another quote:
“I have spoken with some LDS from Hawaii and one from England and they have said they are receiving the same treatment I am mostly because they are outsiders...it is just heartbreaking how cruel entire neighborhoods can be and the really sad thing is that they don't realize the long-term damage they are doing to their own cause.”

Another quote:
“behavior I suffer every day at the hands of my UTAH VALLEY MORMON neighbors not all MORMONS”

“Mormons in this neighborhood do not accept outsiders”

So here I am again asking all of you on this post to look at your own words and behaviors…It is unbelievable that you all are accusing me of doing what you have done…attack Mormons, that isn’t what this post was supposed to be about and for all the Mormons out there reading this I apologize for what is appearing on this thread, it was not supposed to be like this. I would have posted the same thing if my neighbors were Buddhists or Muslim extremists treating me and my family this way. Not that any of you care, but out of respect for the Mormon Religion (and people who are discriminated against for their race, color, religion or sex) could you please stay off this thread!!

Last edited by Cycle; 02-07-2009 at 11:37 PM..
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