Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (wedding, high school)

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by Cycle

stycotl,
I honestly have no clue where you are coming up with all this from. It is an LDS thing in my neighborhood, how many times do I have to say it, why can't you accept it for what it is? I am not attacking the Mormon religion and you are taking this way too personally for someone who doesn't live here and isn't going through it. You are protesting way too much and that says alot...The quotes from all the posts I cited was meant to show that I have referred to it as an LDS thing in my neighborhood but that you all are the ones who are making it into a generalization and I resent my personal experiences being turned into something so heinous. Please stop it.
Cycle

i'm not sure how to explain this in any better a way than i already have.

you tell us in one post that your neighbors are jerks. fair enough. no one had a problem with that.

but in your next post, you tell us that it is a utah problem.

a few posts later you say something like, i know this isn't a mormon problem, so stop attacking me.

and then immediately after tell us how it is a mormon problem, and that we can't tell you that it isn't.

if i tell the world a thousand times that i don't hate black people, but then they catch me calling a black person the 'n' word, even just once, it won't matter how many times i've claimed that i don't hate them.

similarly, your seemingly emotional bursts that mormons are jerks, or even when you narrowed it down to utah valley mormons, kind of take the weight out of your statements that you supposedly realize that this isn't a mormon phenomenon.

if that was not what you intended to communicate, then there is something lacking. i realize that communication is a two-way street, and that the receiver has as vital a role as the giver, and toward that end, this last post explains your situation better than some of the others have, and i have been able to get a feel for what you think (at least i think i have).

going back to the beginning, i specifically asked if this is what you felt, or if you really did think it was a mormon issue. you responded that you were being taken out of context, and that we need to stop attacking you, but never even mentioned who you were refering to, and didn't accept our claims that no one was attacking you.

incidentally, i am still wondering about that, as you haven't answered the question--this is another reason that effective communication was impeded. i was left with the assumption that my earlier guesses had been right, since they were never actually addressed, just belittled and insulted.

i think a lot of people got the idea that you didn't want to actually have a conversation.

again, it is certainly possible that this was never your intent to communicate any of this. but the execution led some of us (definitely me) in that direction.

i'd be perfectly willing to listen to your explanations of how you were kidding earlier, or i misunderstood (if indeed you felt that the context was different than i was understanding), or some other reason for why you said earlier what you said. that might very well close this whole argument and turn it into something more pleasant.

aaron out.

[stycotl]

It seems clear to me that there is an "intolerance" for people that are non-LDS that is fairly common in many parts of Utah (and even those that don't participate in it, seem compelled to defend it, at least to some degree).

there are idiots in utah. no one here has denied or defended them.

I has helped me to understand and prioritize something important that I honestly had not thought about. I want to move someplace where my religion (or lack of same) is not a factor in whether I am liked or accepted.

good luck with that. though i don't know your criteria, i'll comment anyway. my favorite of your other choices is colorado. it still has subalpine mountains, but also has the red rock desert that i like. new mexico would be my second choice. oregon is cool (literally), and i like the coast. but the desert is my home.

If only the general population of Utah would come to accept that this type of behavior exists and that it is going on, maybe we could address it, bring it out into the open, feel free to discuss it and then slowly change a culture and make it to where everyone feels welcome.

this post here seems to me that you are operating under a number of the same presuppositions that you came in here with.

if i am wrong, then forget what i'm saying. this applies to anyone that thinks that jerks are a mormon phenomenon.

utah certainly has its fair share of idiots; self-proclaimed elitists that have nothing better to do but try to rearrange the rest of humanity in their own 'glorious' image. my parents live by some of them. my sister in law works with some of them. i ride the bus with some of them, and go to school with some others.

they exist. yay. we already knew that. no one here has denied it.

what i am denying is the idea that this is a mormon phenomenon, or a mormon problem. it is called a human problem, a flaw of ignorance and hubris tied to our own ignorant mortality. some people are worse than others, but every society has them, and every society has had them since the beginning of civilization.

to claim that mormons invented it, or have a monopoly on it is not very intellectually honest.

i will clarify this again, since it seems that some people refuse to believe it: telling people that this theory is a logical fallacy in no way actually defends or condones the actions of the idiots out there that are snubbing people because of their religious choices, hair color, skin color, or anything else. they'll all get their just desserts in the end, so i don't worry so much about that. my issues are not with them, but with how their uncalled-for actions are used to do the same thing to the rest of us. my defense is for the majority of mormons out there that are decent, friendly people, but that are getting a bad reputation because others feel the need to lump them in with the losers. further, my argument extends to defend the friendly white people, the friendly black people, the friendly baptists, the friendly sikhs, the friendly muslims, and the friendly atheists, that are all also maligned because of stupid relatives, and the public's inability or lack of desire to separate groups, or to separate fact from fiction.

aaron out.

[PrescottAZ]

kaytidid: Thank you for the good wishes.

Cycle: I hope your next mover with Utah solves the problem. Believe me, I understand this problem may not be prevasive in Utah, but it does seem to be a risk, and not a small one. Utah is beautiful, but then again so are the other states on my list.

Stycotl: I am planning a visit to Colorado and I agree with you, if I was to rate my potential choices in order Oregon would be at the bottom. I also love the Southwest.

Thanks again to all who have posted. It really helps to be able to read other people's thoughts and experiences. It's hard to learn all you'd like to know about a new place just visiting, no matter how often you visit.

[lolagranola]

Okay, I just gotta add...

Getting good neighbors is a crap shoot, where ever you move to.

I myself got lucky. Very lucky.

and, BTW, I have a large Budda sitting by my front door, and 2 more in my kitchen. Great convo starters, cause for the most part people don't know what to make of them! I did, however, have one little kid about 9/10 yrs old tell me "I hate Chinese churches and don't want to look at that"!!

[kaytidid]

Originally Posted by lolagranola

Okay, I just gotta add...

Getting good neighbors is a crap shoot, where ever you move to.

I myself got lucky. Very lucky.

and, BTW, I have a large Budda sitting by my front door, and 2 more in my kitchen. Great convo starters, cause for the most part people don't know what to make of them! I did, however, have one little kid about 9/10 yrs old tell me "I hate Chinese churches and don't want to look at that"!!

I also got very lucky! I love Budda! I would imagine he could start all sorts of good conversation!

[carlymac]

Just one final question- What is an extremist Mormon? I've never heard that term. I'd like to know what constitutes an extremist Mormon. If that term was coined by other Mormons, then I'd REALLY like to know how they came up with that definition.

And one final observation- Without realizing it, you pretty much told everyone in your neighborhood to back off with the statue and cross. That explains a whole lot. Where I live now (2 blocks from a Catholic church and school- about 1/4 the neighborhood Catholic) that would be considered Catholic extremism. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Only that it's a pretty strong declaration that you are grounded your beliefs. I would bet money that a big portion of your neighbors are misinterpreting that as a sign to stay away. That you want nothing that even remotely resembles anyone trying to convert you. And that would include being friendly to you. A warped way of looking at things, but there it is.

[kaytidid]

Originally Posted by carlymac

I would bet money that a big portion of your neighbors are misinterpreting that as a sign to stay away.

I was thinking something along those lines too, when she first posted it...

[lolagranola]

Only that it's a pretty strong declaration that you are grounded your beliefs. I would bet money that a big portion of your neighbors are misinterpreting that as a sign to stay away. That you want nothing that even remotely resembles anyone trying to convert you. And that would include being friendly to you. A warped way of looking at things, but there it is.

Carly, from a UT POV that could be...since being here I have seen very little of that type of thing. And add to that, the LDS do not use symbols (the cross, the Virgin, the bleeding heart reference, Ash Wed, ect).

BUT

Where I am from (LI, NY), "everyone" is Catholic and having Mary out on the front lawn is an everyday thing. Or the road-side cross w/flowers...don't think I've seen one of those in UT, where as I have seen them multiple times a day in other places. So, if her Catholicsm is warning them away (which it may), what she has may seem to be nothing out of the ordinary to her.

At a book club recently we were reading a book that had alot to do w/ Catholicsm (I'm the only "non" among us) and I was VERY amused at how little they knew about it!! And how WEIRD they thought some things were!! They didn't seem to understand that THEY are the "weird" ones and that Catholicsm is the "basic"! (I love 'em!)

[Hobo2]

Here we go again, and again, and again, and again, when will people wake up and smell the coffee? YES, there are Mormons here, imagine that. Just as there are Catholics in Rome, wow shocking, imagine that.

People like you who move into an area, then have the gall to have strong negative feelings towards the established culture of the people who live there, really annoy me. You are upset that they don’t act they way you are accustom too, and then have even more gall to call them weird because they don’t see why your so negative towards them. While all the while you are moving here with a misguided chip on your shoulders about Mormons, GIVE ME A BREAK! Let me make a broad statement like yours sounds, and see how you react. All military people just love to kill and are not friendly towards anyone who doesn't agree with that way of life. This broad assumption is way off the mark I relies this, but do you?

Well I’m just going to say it, GO HOME!!! I am not so stupid as to move to an island and expect to convert people into not fishing or boating. I would not move to a coastal area and hate the ocean. If I did these things and blamed the inhabitants for looking at me as a fish out of water, I would not blame them, I would try to adapt and understand them, not call them weird or unfriendly.

YOU, are the problem with YOU! If you can’t see that, there is something wrong with YOU, not with Utahns! WE are just fine, and doing what we like, what a shock this information must be for you.

Reality check here, just so you can understand, now read very carefully, this is not a secret!!! Mormons live in Utah, they were here long before you. If you don’t like them, or think they are so mean, MOVE AWAY!!! We would love to have less Utah bashing people here anyway. If you can adapt and accept the culture, great, welcome, but quit trying to change and whine about the established culture.

My next thread… Is there any place left in Utah that is not surrounded by out of state Utah bashing, naive and ignorant people like this? For crying out loud, get a grip people!!!

[cinnabon]

Originally Posted by PrescottAZ

Cycle: I hope your next mover with Utah solves the problem. Believe me, I understand this problem may not be prevasive in Utah, but it does seem to be a risk, and not a small one. Utah is beautiful, but then again so are the other states on my list.

Wow, Prescott, you picked a helluva thread to read! (I hope you'll read a few others too in making your decision!) While you may choose to move somewhere where religion is not really an issue, I just want to clarify one point. I was in your situation, could have gone any number of places (from NJ, not religious at all). I carefully considered the "Mormon factor" in making my decision, and I came out and visited to get a feel for the place. In my case Utah was the right choice, although it's certainly not for everyone. I made certain I chose an area to live where religion would not be an issue. In Salt Lake City proper and the immediate area, there is a LOT of diversity and practicing Mormons are in the minority (hey, Obama even won here!) My point is, it is not a crap shoot. You just need to choose where you will live carefully. So, it's really not much of a risk. I've been here 6 months and I can't even stress enough how little of an issue religion has been for me - much less than I expected.