Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (American Fork: movies, law)

[michelleleigh]

Sometimes I wander if people are rude because they are just unhappy. I never try to chalk it up tp a religous thing, I have had it happen once and it was when I was getting my haircut, and the manager of the store was going on about non mormans ruining Utah. I felt bad for the poor girl cutting my hair, because she kept saying she was sorry. Also I mean her boss seemed pretty bitter, would not want to have to deal with that every day.

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by Cycle

stycotl,

Again, I ask you to re-read my posts, I have made it perfectly clear and I do not know how to say it any clearer, IT IS A MORMON/NON-MORMON ISSUE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD! I don't for the life of me understand why all of you refuse to accept that it is happening the way it is happening...I keep trying everyday to live my life as a christian regardless of what others do, but nothing you all say on this thread is going to change the fact that it exists.

already read and reread your posts. you still have not gone back to clarify, and i'm not about to waste any more of my time trying to mindread. when you write two conflicting things, people tend to hesitate before they decide which one they think is true.

no one claimed that you weren't living a christian life...

If people would stop denying that it is occurring and admit it could be happening maybe we could get somewhere constructive in this conversation rather than being destructive.....

...and no one is denying that it happens. this is called a straw man argument, where you argue that we are arguing a point that we are not arguing.

none. of. us. are. denying. it. got it?

maybe it has to do with the fact that your idea of constructive conversation would be when everyone else concedes that you know more than they do about the places that they are more familiar with than you? is that it?

And all these posts about how it happens everywhere else in the world does not mitigate the fact that it is happening here and it doesn't make it OK!

true, but that is not the point. again, straw man.

That is like telling my kids it is ok to be bullies and mean to others because kids do it everywhere, stop justifiying and start accepting.

no, it is nothing like that, because that wasn't even remotely what anyone said. no one has justified anything. are you being purposefully deceptive, or do you really just not understand what i am saying when i tell you that a broad generalization doesn't work, *because* it happens elsewhere?

I am tolerant to a fault, but I came on here hoping that maybe there could be some discussion with others about how I could possibly bring about a change in my neighborhood and help my mormon neighbors be more accepting of us...maybe someone out there has experienced what I have experienced and was able to break through...give others a chance to speak about their experiences and stop being so negative.

i am not being negative. disagreeing with you does not automatically make me negative. nor does it automatically make me wrong. nor does it automatically mean that i am attacking you.

it means that i DISAGREE with you. that's it. period.

this is a strange brand of tolerance that i have seen in this thread. you are tolerant so long as no one disagrees with you, no one voices an opinion that might be different from your own, and no one remarks about the logical errors of your argument.

i've tried to understand you; i've asked for clarification i don't even know how many times now, and you still haven't answered. how are we supposed to navigate this maze of logic if you won't even qualify anything that we have questions about?

again:

in one sentance, you say it is a mormon thing.

in the next, you say that it isn't a mormon thing, and you don't know where in the world we got the idea that you think it is a mormon thing. i've quoted it quite a few times, so i don't know how you missed it. if you want to have an intelligent conversation, try starting with the points that have been raised and the questions that have been asked.

if in the presidential race, one candidate asked another candidate a question, and the first candidate refused to answer it, don't you think that would look a little fishy?

i keep thinking i'm done with this thread because it is fairly obvious that you don't want anyone here that doesn't think like you do, and that you are not even willing to use the normal rules and ideals of debate in order to communicate with us, but then you go and make another generalization, or another straw man argument, or another emotional response or unjustified accusation, and i feel compelled to point it out. it is beginning to feel like a cosmic cycle (whoa, that all just fell together too perfectly; that wasn't even an intentional play on names and words...).

whether you like it or not, or even agree with it, a sweeping generalization is a *logical fallacy*. i've brought that up since my first post here. whether you like it or not, so is a straw man argument. whether you like it or not, so is an emotional response.

that should narrow some of my concerns down for you.

not angry. not hostile. not attacking. but definitely concerned.

aaron out.

[Chickrae]

Originally Posted by Cycle

I wanted to create a thread where people felt like they could post their honest experiences as non-lds members living in Utah Valley. I just ask that they be personal experiences and that anyone sharing their eperiences not be attacked. I have been reading the Utah postings from this message board since before we moved to Utah in May of 08. I often read some very negative opinions about some areas of Utah and the influence/behavior of the LDS population. One thing that always happened was that the people who were being negative were bombarded by people calling them negative and saying that there is nothing wrong with Utah, that it has to be them with the problems…I am asking those people who want to get on here and tell me it is my fault to just leave it alone. People who are considering moving to Utah deserve to know the truth just as I should have been allowed to know the truth.

.

From your very first post above....you wanted non-lds people living in Utah Valley to tell experiences. Well there have been alot of non-lds telling their experiences, maybe not many from Utah Valley, because they all didn't have bad experiences like you..some did, some didn't. And the last of your post where you want people who are considering moving to Utah to know the truth, just as you should have been allowed to know the truth. Well not all of them are moving to Utah Valley, some are moving to other places in Utah so that's why others responded about the truth in relation to their own personal experience and no one knew this would happen to you, so how would they "allowed you to know the truth". These are isolate incidents, it doesn't happen to everyone that moves to Utah Valley. No one has stated it's your fault, but yet you post that anticipating that people are going to blame you for your neighbors acting that way.

Originally Posted by Cycle

. I am tolerant to a fault, but I came on here hoping that maybe there could be some discussion with others about how I could possibly bring about a change in my neighborhood and help my mormon neighbors be more accepting of us...maybe someone out there has experienced what I have experienced and was able to break through...give others a chance to speak about their experiences and stop being so negative.

And to your last post above.......no where in your first post does it ask people how you can "possibly bring about a change in my neighborhood and help neighbors be more accepting of us...." What you are looking for is other people that this has happened to, not a way you can bring about a change in your neighborhood. If you would of asked in your first post what you just asked in your last, maybe you would of got a better response that would of been more helpful.

Sometimes you have to take the first step....treat them how you want to be treated and I am sure they would respond in a positive way. Again I am not saying this didn't happen to you and no one is blaming you. You want to make a change, then let it begin with you.

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by michelleleigh

Sometimes I wander if people are rude because they are just unhappy.

i would say so. i think that a lot of this kind of unhappiness that breeds rudeness is a direct result of a self-absorbed personality, the kind of person that feels entitled to happiness in the sense that when they are not happy, it must be someone else's fault.

I never try to chalk it up tp a religous thing, I have had it happen once and it was when I was getting my haircut, and the manager of the store was going on about non mormans ruining Utah. I felt bad for the poor girl cutting my hair, because she kept saying she was sorry. Also I mean her boss seemed pretty bitter, would not want to have to deal with that every day.

you're more kind than i would have been; if i'd have had some idiot complaining about nonmormons while cutting my hair, i probably would have jumped at the chance to pretend i'm a nonmormon and then ask to speak to her manager.

there are stupid people out there, and maybe i take undue pleasure in rooting them out, but when i see crap like this (especially when it has to do with one group or another being unfairly stereotyped or discriminated against, i feel the need to make my mind known.

then the arrogant, aggressive jerk in me comes out, and i prove that pet peeves (selfish, ignorant people in my case) really are what we hate most about ourselves.

yippee! it's the circle of life (had to think of a different reference to a cycle, so that it wouldn't appear as if i were picking on anyone).

aaron out.

[carlymac]

I can't believe this is still going on.

OK Cycle- how are we, a bunch of people who live in various parts of Utah and random sites around the country supposed to help you. How would you like us to help you? What do you want us to say that would be helpful? I don't know a single person in your neighborhood to spread this message to. I tried to spread it to friends who live mostly in Salt Lake and a few who have in the past, but no longer live in Utah County. Across the board they said, "hmmm , sounds really hard for her but how does she know what those people are thinking about her?" Have you even had any conversations with these neighbors? Recently? (Winter tend to keep lots of people indoors rather than out socializing) Have you asked them what they are thinking? Have you asked them what they think of Catholics and well endowed red-heads? Have you looked into their religious beliefs and culture to see what makes them tick? Have you invited them over (aside from the disastrous birthday party?) Have you actually gone to any of the socials or meetings that they invited you to when you first moved in.

How can you possibly know what others are thinking of you? How can you possibly go into a neighborhood (small town) where 99% go to the same church/school and have the same unique beliefs, then put a 4 ft statue of a saint or whatever it was in your front yard (something very unusual for the area- something that is often thought of as a clear sign of being anti Mormon) and then not expect your neighbors to be cautious --at the very least ?

What you are asking of all of us and what you are expecting of your neighborhood is just not logical. YOU need to be the one to bridge that gap. YOU need to not be afraid of them even though they don't wave back. March right up to them and introduce yourselves and ask about them, their families, what their kids are involved in, where they work, etc. Obviously you are going to have to do more than just wave at them to crack what appears to be a hard exterior. Don't give up. You need to prove to the neighbors that you care about them and their welfare, that you aren't going to bad-mouth their culture and religion and beliefs. (Unfortunately many that have come and gone before you may have left a bad taste in their mouths for people who look down on the LDS beliefs and lifestyle) If you don't really care then quit asking for help from us and quit blaming your neighbors.

You really aren't doing anyone a favor by starting this thread and expecting lots of sympathy. You got it from me briefly but after reading all your responses that pretty much ignore all our suggestions, I've come to the conclusion that you really don't want to admit that you might be even partially at fault. And I don't believe you really WANT help in solving your problem. YOu seem to only want our pity. ANd that is just nonsense.

At this point, the only thing I can suggest to help you is what I've already suggested an obnoxious amount of times and if you aren't willing to put forth more effort yourself, then expect that your family will continue to feel lonely till you move.

Sorry for you that you can't see what is so obvious and that you've assumed things about people that have led to your unhappiness.

[stycotl]

How can you possibly know what others are thinking of you? How can you possibly go into a neighborhood (small town) where 99% go to the same church/school and have the same unique beliefs, then put a 4 ft statue of a saint or whatever it was in your front yard (something very unusual for the area- something that is often thought of as a clear sign of being anti Mormon) and then not expect your neighbors to be cautious --at the very least ?

cautious i can understand. put off, maybe. it certainly is a declaration of sorts. but unfriendly, i can't accept. surely there are people that would take a catholic statue as a sign of being an antimormon, but those people are generally pretty mentally and emotionally disturbed. she has every right to proclaim her own faith, just as the apartments of mormon missionaries can always be identified by the pictures of Jesus in the windows.

not arguing with what you are saying here; just declaring to anyone that still listens to my rants that a catholic statue is a pathetic excuse for someone to decide to take offense and be unfriendly to a neighbor.

aaron out.

[lolagranola]

What I want to know, is, Cycle are you going to join us when we have a CD get-together?

[carlymac]

"cautious i can understand. put off, maybe. it certainly is a declaration of sorts. but unfriendly, i can't accept"

My point is that the caution or put-offness people are feeling is being interpreted as unfriendliness by her. Yes she has every right to put her religious symbols in her yard but it does make a statement, especially in Utah. And my guess is that just as she is misinterpreting their wariness as unfriendliness, people in her neighborhood are misinterpreting whatever statement she is making with her statue as "Leave me alone! Don't even try to convert me." So that's what her neighborhood is doing. Leaving her alone. I think people might be very confused by her friendliness- just can't figure out her mixed signals. (Again, my guess) In that respect it IS a Mormon thing- it's group think, a quirk LDS people have because of what we are taught. And Aaron- you know as well as any of the us basis of that quirk. It's partially from being told to "share our message" so often, but also because our beliefs in eternal families and temple covenants, etc. and how we hope those blessings for thw whole world.

I don't believe for one minute that Mormons in any neighborhood are banding together and deciding who they will or won't socialize with. Nor do I believe for one minute that whatever rejection she is feeling is because people in her neighborhood are mean spirited and exclusive. (Some little kids are and teens are notorious for this but most adults have grown out of it-hopefully) I believe all this hurt is due to miscommunications and both sides not understanding the nuances and signals the other is putting out there.

In every post I've tried to explain some of these cultural and religious nuances and how they might be playing into the whole scenario. My attempts to explain Mormons, their background and culture have only been met with "I don't want to hear excuses for this kind of intolerable behavior." If no attempt is being made to understand the culture one has moved into, then that person deserves the results of the miscommunication of signals. If you don't want to be treated like an interloper, you need to go the extra mile to understand the culture (the rules, traditions, schedules, whatever) of the people and be accepting (non judgemental, and more like a duck) of their differences. I'm not saying you have to embrace and totally immerse yourself in that culture but you certainly need to be respectful of it. It's human behavior 101. Or maybe in this case 201- a little more advanced than 101 where you expect others to wave back when you wave.

Yes Mormons are a peculiar people. But categorically mean, rude and exclusive, absolutely not!

[mktavish]

Holy crap ola ... that was a long read.
Why did I read it you might ask ?
Hmmm ... maybe cuz im out here in New Orleans (recently moved from American Fork) Missing the petty bickering of that state (comon admit it , thats why you guys come here)

I had something I wanted to say after the first page , but now I cant remember exactly what it was.
Let me just say this Cycle ... anyone who is familiar with mormonism , knows exactly what your talking about. But I would have to say the place has come along way from even 20 years ago(when I was a practicing mormon)
I am the second oldest of 12 children , born raised mormon ... my family has practiced mormonism , both parents as far back as I know. My parents were divorced when I was 6 though. And after my moms 3rd husband , she had a bit of a falling out with the people in our rich snooty sandy neighborhood and got her self excamunicated. I believe it was over the neighbors noticeing she had a boyfriend spend the night. Anyways a few years later ,and after some harsh treatment(in the name of religion) from my staunch mormon father, I decided that religion wasnt something I wanted anything to do with .... Infact after years of thinking about it and comming up with my thoughts on the subject ... I think anytime religion gets organized to that degree , It becomes evil/corrupt and certainly not what christ intended.

Another thing I'd like to add is that the nicest/most level headed and accepting mormons I have met , are the ones that are recently converted or atleast within 1-2 generations of it.
Families that have been in it for many generations seem to produce alot of holier than thou/snooty types ,disfunctional and also the disgruntled types that become mormon bashers themselves. Not that all of them are , just that the odds are stacked that way. Maybe one day the LDS church will split again .... and a new church will emerge , leaving behind all the pond scum so to speak ..... LOL.
And to all the people saying this mormon bashing is on the rise ... I do believe this is something that has been for told was going to happen ... was it not??? you know the whole saturdays warrior syndrome.
Meanwhile Im happy in the hospitipal south , cuz all the hate and stress of salt lake and surrounding area's was starting to get to me. Especially the crazy drivers of Utah valley ....eeshhh

[mktavish]

Oh sheesh , I realized I needed to add some info to my story.
My mother and father had 3 kids together , of wich I am the second oldest. Then they got divorced when I was 6. My father got remarried and had 9 more kids. My mother had 1 kid with her second husband . So I have 12 brothers and sisters all together.
With her 3rd husband she had no kids ... but he was a severely disfuntional person as far as sex.(Had a shed full of pornography secretly) My mother had gone to the church officials about it. And they gave her a hush hush attitude about it. Eventually they got divorced (we still lived in the sandy city neighborhood) About a year or so later , she decides she wants to try other than mormon men , this man stays the night .... the neighborhood see's his car overnight ~eye brows are raised~ .... they call her in for a bishops court (meanwhile the decons chorum comes over to basically make sure im not falling in to pits of perrill like her I guess ..... she kinda makes a scene infront of all my supposed friends ..... then I guess she basically tells them to BLEEP themselves as far as the bishops court..... INSTANT EXCOMUNICATION.
My dad has allways been a very devout mormon , and actually taken his belief to bouts of violence to make his point. My whole family other than my mother have remained church going folks. I am the proverbial black sheep , and my mother is my closest realative. But she still has those engrainded beliefs from mormanism ,even getting ostersized like that.

I personally believe in the power of faith ... and think it is a tool to be used in our everyday lives. But the heaven ,Bible thumpers have faith in is actually a prison they are building for them selves.
The Universe is so much bigger than the little bubble of the Celestial Kingdom.
IF you want to reside in it , Im sure you will ... but eternity is a way long time to live in a bubble.
And to be fair ... alot of you other christian faiths are doin the same thing ... I just dont have as much exp with em, hence no mention.