Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (college, move to)

[carlymac]

Mctavish- sorry to hear about all your sad experiences. Sounds like you have had a pretty confusing life. But from the way you have described it, your troubles aren't rooted in the LDS church. Your life sounds pretty atypical from most member families I know. I'm not saying Mormon families are perfect. There are mixed up families in every neighborhood, city and state. And within every religion.

Hope you find peace wherever you end up.

[mktavish]

well carlymac ... thanx for your typical patronizing mormon response.
Its years old ,,,, maybe I am the one who is messed up , but I think you should ask the question again of your bretheren ... of just what kind of people they wish to produce./

[michelleleigh]

The thing is that you can find bad experiances with any religon,In New Mexico I would have people tell me being Luthran was not being Christan. Yes at times I have had a bit of a hard time fiting in out here, but I never chalked it to a religous thing, more of a I am a 36 yr old Mom to young children ie 5yrs and 8months. Also I can be very shy untill you get to know me, so maybe I do not come off as unfriendly. However if someone is being rude to you just because of a religous differance then that is just flat out wrong. God is God no matter what faith you choose to practice. Blessings Michelle

[seekerhiker]

I have lived in Utah on and off for 35 of the last 50 years and have had a full range of experiences as a non-mormon (no-mo) in Utah. I've often wished someone would write a book on what it is really like. It's not a simple story.

As a child, I saw my mother insulted and rejected for not being a member of "the" church, but she later converted to the LDS church and now in her old age is being cared for in many ways by the loving members in her ward. I have good friends and co-workers who are LDS church members, but I have also, like any no-mo who lives here long enough, experienced profound rejection, bigotry, and prejudice.

Here's just one example: I lived in a neighborhood where someone in the ward with a big machine plowed all the sidewalks but went out into the street to avoid plowing just the part of the sidewalk in front of my family's house--the only no-mo house on the block (and it's not an isolated incident--I've heard similar stories from other people), but I also lived in a neighborhood where ward volunteers kept our whole driveway shoveled all winter. It often comes down to the individual people--as many things do, but there is definitely a "ward culture" that varies by neighborhood.

I've lived in several wards in the same town, and the ward culture in relation to no-mo neighbors (and even to LDS members who were from outside Utah) varied a lot. How can you know ahead of time? Request the ward directory--if non-Mormons are included, it's a good sign. And ask the no-mos who live there--do they have a ward directory--was it provided to them and are they in it? Have they been invited to some of the more secular ward activities (summer neighborhood picnics, etc.)? Do the neighborhood LDS children play with the no-mo children? If not, look elsewhere. There really are some friendly, tolerant, inclusive neighborhoods in Utah even though there are some that are the opposite. If you've lived only in one kind--you have no idea what the other could be like.

Yes, there are religious bigots of all kinds all over the world (I've lived in several other states and traveled a lot internationally), but not usually with quite the same obliviousness and defensiveness. Whenever a no-mo complains, there is always always the barrage of "no you're wrong" defensive replies that the original poster tried to avoid. And those kinds of messages rarely increase anyone's understanding of the situation.

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by carlymac

"cautious i can understand. put off, maybe. it certainly is a declaration of sorts. but unfriendly, i can't accept"

My point is that the caution or put-offness people are feeling is being interpreted as unfriendliness by her. Yes she has every right to put her religious symbols in her yard but it does make a statement, especially in Utah. And my guess is that just as she is misinterpreting their wariness as unfriendliness, people in her neighborhood are misinterpreting whatever statement she is making with her statue as "Leave me alone! Don't even try to convert me." So that's what her neighborhood is doing. Leaving her alone. I think people might be very confused by her friendliness- just can't figure out her mixed signals. (Again, my guess) In that respect it IS a Mormon thing- it's group think, a quirk LDS people have because of what we are taught. And Aaron- you know as well as any of the us basis of that quirk. It's partially from being told to "share our message" so often, but also because our beliefs in eternal families and temple covenants, etc. and how we hope those blessings for thw whole world.

I don't believe for one minute that Mormons in any neighborhood are banding together and deciding who they will or won't socialize with. Nor do I believe for one minute that whatever rejection she is feeling is because people in her neighborhood are mean spirited and exclusive. (Some little kids are and teens are notorious for this but most adults have grown out of it-hopefully) I believe all this hurt is due to miscommunications and both sides not understanding the nuances and signals the other is putting out there.

In every post I've tried to explain some of these cultural and religious nuances and how they might be playing into the whole scenario. My attempts to explain Mormons, their background and culture have only been met with "I don't want to hear excuses for this kind of intolerable behavior." If no attempt is being made to understand the culture one has moved into, then that person deserves the results of the miscommunication of signals. If you don't want to be treated like an interloper, you need to go the extra mile to understand the culture (the rules, traditions, schedules, whatever) of the people and be accepting (non judgemental, and more like a duck) of their differences. I'm not saying you have to embrace and totally immerse yourself in that culture but you certainly need to be respectful of it. It's human behavior 101. Or maybe in this case 201- a little more advanced than 101 where you expect others to wave back when you wave.

Yes Mormons are a peculiar people. But categorically mean, rude and exclusive, absolutely not!

i know; my point was not to argue your point, but to make a point of my own (yeah, i can't not change a subject–probably has to do with an inability to focus on any one thing for more than 20 seconds). i am sure that cycle has found some idiotic neighbors where she lives. i know that up in the eagle mountain area, my sister in law teaches grade school to the kids of a handful of families that won't let their kids play with nonmormon kids (maybe they're afraid of gentile cooties or something).

in my opinion, and fortunately, in the opinion of the majority of the mormons and nonmormons that i've met here in utah and abroad, excuses like that are just that: excuses. they are the justification of an ignorant, shallow, snobbish personality to act on the feelings of superiority that they already possess.

Hmmm ... maybe cuz im out here in New Orleans (recently moved from American Fork) Missing the petty bickering of that state (comon admit it , thats why you guys come here)

i for one don't miss the petty nickering of any state i've been to, mormon or otherwise.

you think that the reason that we come to the utah forum is to bicker? maybe if you'd read the majority of the posts on the utah forum, you'd realize this to be an overwhelmingly incorrect remark.

... anyone who is familiar with mormonism , knows exactly what your talking about.

so does anyone that is familiar with catholics, baptists, sikhs, zoroastrians, atheists, and flying spaghetti monster disciples; in short, so does anyone that is familiar with humanity.

But I would have to say the place has come along way from even 20 years ago(when I was a practicing mormon)

i agree with this statement wholeheartedly. not that i like scores and scores of people migrating to my state every day (i kinda like the small-town feel), but it has done wonders as far as making the locals get up and meet new people and intermingle.

it has also done some not-so-great things, like gangs, drugs, etc, but those can't be avoided when population density increases in today's world. sigh.

And after my moms 3rd husband...

ouch. that's gotta be hard on the kids.

she had a bit of a falling out with the people in our rich snooty sandy neighborhood and got her self excamunicated

still not sure exactly what a falling out with rich neighbors has to do with excommunication, but i'd be willing to put money on the idea that rich, snooty neighbors can be a pain in the ass. i've never had the 'misfortune' to live in a neighborhood with rich neighbors, much less rich, snooty ones. but i have had some coworkers, roommates, school associates, etc, that would fit the bill. some of them i'd have liked to push under a bus, irrespective of religion.

she had a boyfriend spend the night.

that just might do it. as to how or why the neighbors noticed, beats me; not that it is any of my business.

I decided that religion wasnt something I wanted anything to do with .... Infact after years of thinking about it and comming up with my thoughts on the subject ... I think anytime religion gets organized to that degree , It becomes evil/corrupt and certainly not what christ intended.

sorry to hear about your treatment at the hands of your father.

as to organized religion, i understand wholeheartedly; if i wasn't a convert to mormonism, i'd probably be taoist, buddhist, or agnostic. why? precisely because of the stupidity of organized religion. i believe in Christ, but i also believe that if i hadn't been born into mormonism and had the experiences that i have, that today's christianity would have ruined the chritian message for me to the point that my tiny mind wouldn't have been able to see past the blood and excrement.

Another thing I'd like to add is that the nicest/most level headed and accepting mormons I have met , are the ones that are recently converted or atleast within 1-2 generations of it.

yes, or the ones that have lived for a large period outside of utah. sometimes a mission doesn't even do it for some people; they come back with the same level of openmindedness and perspective that they left with, no matter where they served.

generally, i think that it is a level of exposure to cultural influences outside of your own, and certainly, people that were born, raised, married, and settled in the same culture, have a greater chance of cultural blindness than do those that have a varied experience in that matter.

Families that have been in it for many generations seem to produce alot of holier than thou/snooty types ,disfunctional and also the disgruntled types that become mormon bashers themselves.

that sounds like a generalization, and a theory based on one of multiple factors that lead to attitude problems.

Not that all of them are , just that the odds are stacked that way.

now you are groping in the dark. i know quite a few mormon families that are well-established, sons-of-the-pioneers folk, that are some of the nicest, most openminded people i know. i also know quite a few self-described 'apostates' that came from those same families that are still welcome and loved, and still love and welcome those same uber-mormon families.

if you wish to claim that the odds are stacked against them, maybe you ought to share some of your research. otherwise, it seems merely like a presupposition and a sweeping generalization.

Maybe one day the LDS church will split again .... and a new church will emerge , leaving behind all the pond scum so to speak ..... LOL.

if some of the snottier members of the church want to break off and form their own 'church of the elite of Jesus Christ' than i certainly wouldn't lift a finger to stop them. it'd make my life a lot easier, and it might even prove to people that jerks are everywhere, and are not a mormon phenomenon.

you know the whole saturdays warrior syndrome.

beats me. i can't stand that movie; don't even remember the plot or moral premise anymore.

Meanwhile Im happy in the hospitipal south , cuz all the hate and stress of salt lake and surrounding area's was starting to get to me.

so the hate and stress of elsewhere is preferrable to the hate and stress of your hometown (assumption on your place of origin)? i've lived in the 'hospitable' south and was the subject of much hate and contempt (even violence once) because of my religious beliefs.

fortunately for the southerners, i can recognize that this is not a trait native to southern culture, and that it exists everwhere (actually, fortunately for me, since in the end, personal grudges only emotionally hurt the one holding the grudge, and the southerners would go about their lives whether or not i love them or not).

Especially the crazy drivers of Utah valley ....eeshhh

ah. now we have switched subjects. either way though, i've experienced drivers across the country, and while the stupid drivers of utah irritate me to no end, they don't any more than did the stupid drivers of anywhere else i've lived or travelled (especially not south america...).

And they gave her a hush hush attitude about it.

i'd be interested to see what this actually means. but if it is true that church leaders did not help your mom when she came to them, and instead urged to her to keep it 'hush hush' about it, then they need to be relieved of their responsibilities.

as it stands though, i'm betting that there is more to the story than that.

(meanwhile the decons chorum comes over to basically make sure im not falling in to pits of perrill like her I guess ...

again, i'd be interested to see what exactly happened here. i'm not sure what this could even mean.

she basically tells them to BLEEP themselves as far as the bishops court..... INSTANT EXCOMUNICATION.

i've never heard of anything similar to that being grounds for instant excommunication, though obviously there were other reasons that brought her to that point in the first place...

My dad has allways been a very devout mormon , and actually taken his belief to bouts of violence to make his point.

again, not in anyway an insult to you, but it sounds like your dad is a piece of work.

My whole family other than my mother have remained church going folks. I am the proverbial black sheep , and my mother is my closest realative. But she still has those engrainded beliefs from mormanism ,even getting ostersized like that.

though obviously we believe that the 'black sheep' in its metaphorical sense is someone that has rejected Christ, that is not for us to judge, because we don't know of the extenuating circumstances in your life (though it sounds like there were quite a few...), and we don't know that you have ever even had an opportunity to really accept or see Christ or His message, surrounded by and raised by the environment that you were.

this gets in to the whole idea of the heathen nation and those that will recieve God's mercy, and that is another topic entirely that belongs in the religious forum, but the point is that we are as imperfect as you, whether we have rejected the church or not.

thus, as far as other members are concerned, you are as much a Son or Daughter of God as they (we) are. obviously not all of the members of any church are humble or smart enough to figure that out, and there will always be the ones that think that wayward brothers and sisters deserve scorn instead of love, but i am pretty confident that those are the few-and-far-between members, not the general population.

also note that excommunication does not necessarily mean ostracization, although the very words themselves are in a sense the same thing. most of the excomms that i've met over the years didn't want anything else to do with the church, though the hope is that they will. i know one lady in particular, that though i can't say that we are friends, up until i moved, we were associates, and i treated her the same as i would anyone else of her personality type.

I personally believe in the power of faith ... and think it is a tool to be used in our everyday lives. But the heaven ,Bible thumpers have faith in is actually a prison they are building for them selves.
The Universe is so much bigger than the little bubble of the Celestial Kingdom.
IF you want to reside in it , Im sure you will ... but eternity is a way long time to live in a bubble.
And to be fair ... alot of you other christian faiths are doin the same thing ... I just dont have as much exp with em, hence no mention.

one of my favorite topics to discuss in theology! unfortunately, not one for the utah forum, but your point is definitely backed by a lot of history.

i'm not sure what theology you profess now, and honestly, as far as the utah forum is concerned, it doesn't matter. but the truth is that organized religion has always caused contention.

i believe that Christ did actually form an organized religion and that the bible supports this belief. even that organization was rampant with internal problems, not because of any fault of Christ's–but because He created it for the imperfect humans that we are, with our fragile egos, logically fallacious and ignorant ideologies, and penchant for hate and prejudice.

since then, with the millions of organizations that don't even have the benefit of being built upon the same foundsation as Christ's church, it is no wonder that people drop everything and run from organized religion as they would a flesh-consuming virus.

what does this have to do with utah and mormons?

simply that the mormon church was made for the same sinners and idiots that was Christ's church, and even the leaders are imperfect. i won't claim that mormons are perfect, that utahns are perfect, or any other variation of the theme.

i will, however, argue any of these attempts to paint utahns or mormons as ignorant or meanspirited. there are certainly those here that fit the bill, but certainly not all of them, and if i were a betting man, i'd put money on the fact that not even the majority of them do.

to claim otherwise–unless you have actual evidence–is to try to force personal opinion and personal experience on to an entire culture. that is what is known as generalization–a logical fallacy, and not the best argumentative strategy to be attempting. further, it is pretty often the result of an extreme emotional response, which is also a logically unsupportable argument.

there is a reason why so many of us argue these posts about how mean utahns and mormons are. many of us are utahns and many of us are mormons (and many are utahns that are nonmormon) and get lumped in with the jerks when these broad brushes are used to paint our entire culture.

yes, there are jerks here. no, there is no way to justify the actual jerks.

but at the same time, there is no justification for the bitterness and the accusations that end up labeling all of us as jerks, merely because we are related to the vocal few, the ones that get noticed and remembered.

mktavish, despite the very good points that you have in your argument, and the real-world truths that you have noticed about religion in general, and life in general, you too have fallen to this generalization of an entire culture.

Families that have been in it for many generations seem to produce alot of holier than thou/snooty types ,disfunctional and also the disgruntled types that become mormon bashers themselves. Not that all of them are , just that the odds are stacked that way.

Missing the petty bickering of that state (comon admit it , thats why you guys come here)

i certainly could be wrong, just as i certainly could be wrong about cycle's seemingly contradictory statements, but you would be hard-pressed to explain in a logical fashion to any serious debaters that these statements were not made with the guiding hand of emotional response, sweeping generalization, and fairly pronounced prejudice.

those kinds of baseless and generalized accusations are as wrong as would be any mormon that decided not to associate with someone simply because they were not mormon, and that is why i am on this thread, not because i like the petty bickering, and petty bickering has nothing to do with the reason i am on the forums in general, though you seem to already have that presupposition in your head.

aaron out.

[cinnabon]

Originally Posted by seekerhiker

Whenever a no-mo complains, there is always always the barrage of "no you're wrong" defensive replies that the original poster tried to avoid. And those kinds of messages rarely increase anyone's understanding of the situation.

If you read this whole thread you would realize that many if not most of us who took issue with her are "no-mo's" and that NO ONE told her she was wrong or discredited what she was saying. The replies were not defensive, her responses to them were.

aaron, that is the longest post I have ever seen!

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by cinnabon

If you read this whole thread you would realize that many if not most of us who took issue with her are "no-mo's" and that NO ONE told her she was wrong or discredited what she was saying. The replies were not defensive, her responses to them were.
[bold]
aaron, that is the longest post I have ever seen![/bold]

i try. i ought to see if i find one of my old philosophy papers and try to get one of those in a single post.

as far as your earlier comment about the 'no-mo's' and the defensiveness, that is exactly how i've been looking at it too.

for those that didn't actually read the book of aaron as posted above, there will be numerous revisions as different religions become aware of it and adopt it as their own. until then, it basically meant just that arguments built on logical fallacies aren't destined to be given much positive attention, and aren't likely to draw much in the way of agreement or sympathy.

aaron out.

[mktavish]

Well , I guess it shows you were hanging on my every word so to speak :P

I merely told some of my story like the OP asked (even though it wasnt from a non-mormon)

Let me ask this ... Does someone have to be a follower of a religious organized philosiphy to be christ like?

And yes that state has more hate within in it as far as I can see ... It comes from the polarization between the lds and nons. So im not saying its all LDS fault. Or maybe it is from the self fullfilling prophecy(saturdays Warrior). As far as stress ,I belive if you checked some statistics , you would find salt lake and surrounding area's to be one of the highest stressed due to population growth in the nation. And I think you could account atleast half of the problem to the large family culture there.

Oh and sorry for putting one sentence in about the drivers of Utah valley ... They are some of the rudest in the state imo. Probably due to the streets built to be small townish , but there is a population explosion down there now.
Its funny though , compared to New Orleans ... this place has tiny streets compared to even utah valley .... and here they are lined with cars usually. The level off stress driving around here is much less imo , and I can only chalk it up to 2 different mentalities.

Utah valley = Me First Drivers
New Orleans = Me next drivers

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by mktavish

Well , I guess it shows you were hanging on my every word so to speak :P

this is actually how i usually respond to posts. i figure that if someone went to the trouble to write it all down, then i ought to analyze it all.

though i usually do compiled summaries of posts as large as my second to last one...

I merely told some of my story like the OP asked (even though it wasnt from a non-mormon)

and there is no problem in that (though i am curious as to who you are referring to as the non-mormon; do you consider yourself to be mormon still?)

Let me ask this ... Does someone have to be a follower of a religious organized philosiphy to be christ like?

this belongs in the philosophy forum if we actually want to get into a debate about it, but my short answer is: no, anyone can be Christlike. in fact, i know some atheists that are more Christlike than some of the 'christians' that i know. it really just requires that you live as well as you can with the knowledge that you have. if you have the knowledge, follow it.

And yes that state has more hate within in it as far as I can see ...

at least you are recognizing that this is your perspective and opinion. that certainly is justifiable. my issue is with those that try to proclaim their opinion as gospel, and expect everyone to agree with them.

It comes from the polarization between the lds and nons. So im not saying its all LDS fault.

this is certainly an area of contention in utah. it is an intercultural issue though, not a mormon-non issue. the mormon-non would be the subissue.

Or maybe it is from the self fullfilling prophecy(saturdays Warrior).

still don't know what you are referring to here; that was one of the stupidest movies i've ever seen, so i haven't ever watched it again (and that was ten or fifteen years ago). sorry to those that like that movie; just my personal opinion.

As far as stress ,I belive if you checked some statistics , you would find salt lake and surrounding area's to be one of the highest stressed due to population growth in the nation.

i'd like to see those statistics if you have them. utah is certainly growing quickly, and that will bring about growth pains, usually in the form of poor reactions to culture shock.

And I think you could account atleast half of the problem to the large family culture there.

this is your opinion again. i fail to see how large families inexorably contribute to higher stress. in my extended family, it seemed to do the opposite (can't speak of my own family, cuz we were only four kids). my cousins seemed to do just fine growing up. one of the interesting things about our large, extended family is that with a larger family, there is more chance for more kids to choose lifestyles different from the parents.

i have quite a few siblings, and quite a few cousins that have left the church (though none of them have any intersting stories as you do; their stories are just about wanting a different life philosophy), and all of them are still on speaking terms with their very compassionate families. i am not saying that this doesn't cause stress or misunderstanding; i am just saying that almost all of them are dealing with it very well. outside of my family, i have friends in the same boat, having left the church and their traditional beliefs, and most of them still get along great with their families.

this is tangential though, so again, large families do not automatically create a more stressful environment in my opinion, and i'll keep that opinion until i read some convincing studies that show otherwise.

Oh and sorry for putting one sentence in about the drivers of Utah valley ... They are some of the rudest in the state imo. Probably due to the streets built to be small townish , but there is a population explosion down there now.
Its funny though , compared to New Orleans ... this place has tiny streets compared to even utah valley .... and here they are lined with cars usually. The level off stress driving around here is much less imo , and I can only chalk it up to 2 different mentalities.

Utah valley = Me First Drivers
New Orleans = Me next drivers

ah. i completely read that wrong the first time. presupposition on my part (a logical fallacy, by the way). i read "utah drivers", not "utah county drivers". i figured it was just one more drop in the i-really-hate-utah bucket that gets filled up so quickly around here. i apologize for my confusion.

however, as long as we're on the subject, someone needs to do a documentary about south american drivers. utahns look like saints compared to what i saw down there (playing chicken on the highways with oncoming traffic, piling 12 people into sedans, driving on sidewalks, etc).

aaron out.

[Chickrae]

Originally Posted by cinnabon

aaron, that is the longest post I have ever seen!

That was definitely the longest post I have ever seen also, but it was well worth reading and I can tell it was well thought out also.