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Old 02-24-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,612 posts, read 3,474,573 times
Reputation: 1231

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobo2 View Post
Cycle doesn't want to understand, I'm so glad you get it.

A person like this is not going to be happy wherever they are... it will always be someones else's fault for their lot in life. They just stir things up, because they don't have a life. My proof will be their lack of responding to me... and you, need I say more!
she responded. guess that blows your theory out of the water.

Quote:
It is sad to see this kind of thread because people like Cycle are destructive to this wonderful state.
i don't think people like cycle are destructive to anything. first of all, neither of us know her in any sense at all, and are familiar with only a few of her internet posts.

you can't condemn a person that you are only acquainted with through textual conversations on the internet. doesn't work that way. i bet you anything that you could be sitting next to someone like cycle at a bar or a baseball game, chatting away, thinking how pleasant this person is, and not even realize that it is the same person that you are arguing with and insulting on the internet.

Quote:
I'm sure this goes on, but truthfully, doesn't it happen everywhere, and doesn't it involve a very small number of people?
first thing you've said that i agree with (well, first thing that stuck out anyway). as to numbers, i am not sure. i know for a fact that some neighborhoods are worse than others. is it possible that she is surrounded in a neighborhood of idiots? certainly; i have been before. does that make it a utah problem or a mormon problem? no. it makes it a neighborhood problem, and maybe she needs to spank the crap out of some really ignorant people.

that said, i still think that (admittedly, what i perceive to be) her logically fallacious reasonings do her argument and our state an injustice. but i've already said that numerous times.

Quote:
To look at one bad apple, or experience one negative incident to someone from out of state or a different religin, then paint everyone this way, is a very narrow minded raciest person, if you ask me.
cycle has already mentioned that it has happened more than once by more than one person. you are free to disbelieve her, but it sounds plausible.

again though, the last part of your statement is sound, as generalizations and stereotypes are necessary for some level of interaction and judgment, but can only be trusted so far, and after that they serve only to distort the truth.

Quote:
What is racialism?
don't know; never heard of racialism. maybe i need to crack a dictionary more often...

Quote:
Is it for the colored only? What if someone like Cycle were saying this about a minority, how would it be perceived?
you tell us.

Quote:
In my opinion, Cycle is board with life, frustrated with how things turned out (usually because of their own making), and looking to place blame.
again, i don't agree with her stance, but you are assuming lots of things about her that you have no logical basis to assume–logical fallacy.

Quote:
Utah has it's faults like any other state does. Utah has its fanatics too, like any other state does. Utah is wholesome in their beliefs, and does legislate this theme (we do in fact elect like-minded people). Blaming "all" Utahans for the actions of a few, or criticizing the people by calling them sheltered or brainwashed (you know Cycle is intending to say this), is a reflection on only on type of persons here, PLEASE DON'T GET CONFUSED!
actually, no i hadn't thought that this was the direction that she was headed. brainwashed and sheltered are certainly brought up pretty often when people talk of mormons and of utahns, but she hasn't said anything that i remember that made me think she was going in that direction.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, this subject is closed. Take sides if you want and keep the argument going..
i don't even know what you are talking about here. or who you are talking to at this point.

Quote:
But remember, if you choose to move anywhere, Utah is best for families,
best as in better than any other state, or best as in that is what we are best for?

Quote:
we love people and try hard to reflect this. But also remember, we are tough too,
this is my personal opinion, but i find most utahns to be rather passive. i'm a utahn, and count myself among the same group, so this is not an insult, just an observation. it is also not a 'utah problem' or a 'mormon problem' so much as it is just a people problem; some people get complacent where they are and don't feel like they have to fight for everything constantly, and that kind of takes the tough out of them.

passivity is not necessarily a bad thing anyway, but it is kind of different from the way that you are using the word, 'tough.'

Quote:
we don't take kindly to people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to bash others. We do expect people to be responsible and productive... doesn't everone expect this.
no, not everyone expects this. yes, everyone that i like to hang around with expects this.

cycle never said anything that should lead you to believe that she is irresponsible or unproductive. if this is what you are reading into your posts, you are ass-uming a lot again. if this is not what you are reading into her posts, then who the hell are you talking to, and what does this have to do with the discussion?

for the record, i don't bash (usually) in turn against those that i feel are bashing me. i've found that to be pretty ineffective through my experience with people. usually, i try to help them see the logic of the matter, rather than the emotional responses and generalizations, and i don't tell them to get lost if they don't like it.

occasionally, i'm the one that needs to see the logic...

aaron out.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:08 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,612 posts, read 3,474,573 times
Reputation: 1231
before i forget:

Quote:
I have chosen not to respond to you and the poster you responded to simply because you both are doing such a great job of making my original point for me that anyone who posts anything negative about living in Utah gets attacked
i haven't attacked you. in fact, i've been more sarcastic with hobo than i have with you; maybe i'm trying to spare your feelings a little more since you are the newcomer, i dunno...

further, your decision to ignore me has only prolonged this debate, as you have yet to answer my questions. therefore, i still think what i've thought this whole time (though i admit that i could certainly be horribly misreading your intentions, but again, i'll apparently never know since you refuse to answer questions...).

aaron (no, not the american idol guy) out.
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:26 PM
 
70 posts, read 139,172 times
Reputation: 67
stycotl,
You seem to be very sincere in your attempts to understand me and I really do appreciate that. Without quoting me, could you please just post what question it is that I haven't answered or addressed in these posts and I will do my best to answer you. Take it easy on me and let's just do one at a time
Cycle
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Cedar City, Utah
4,163 posts, read 5,796,639 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by osugirl2 View Post
lol I have typos all the time. I happen to be a republican, but many of my closest friends are "flaming liberals" I personally think everyone is entitled to their own political views and beliefs, but there is definitely a liberal majority over there in green country where you're at, and while my liberal friends tease me, they can get down right hateful about the republicans (not that I'm generalizing that every liberal is that way of course) There are definitely a lot of misconceptions about the LDS Church, and I'm glad that some of your co-workers are starting to talk with you about it. I myself knew hardly any facts about the LDS church until my best friend moved to Las Vegas and became LDS a few years after she got there through a guy she had started dating. Misconceptions are always due to a lack of knowledge, and I think that's probably why some in Utah experience what they do. Just as many people here in Oklahoma know little about the LDS faith, so it goes that many in Utah may not know too much of other faiths or lifestyles other than their own. When I first started checking out the Utah page I was afraid there was a lot of strife due to the "Us vs. Them" mentality since it was the topic of a lot of threads on here, but now I think there are so many posts about LDS vs. Non-LDS because that's all anyone has ever associated Utah with in the past. Religion is very much a lifestyle for many especially Mormons and I think if outsiders would start regarding it as more of a culture and way of life rather than just a "religion" they could see it differently
I agree with you misconceptions are usually due to lack of knowledge. I have to say I don't know much about the baptists either...but I am learning. That's where I first learned about LDS was from a friend when I was 14. All I had ever been told was mormons had horns and that is what my family told me, so imagine how they felt when I joined the church to be among the people with horns...ha ha. Anyways you have a very open mind and will get along fine in Utah. You understand that people are people and I am sure the non-LDS vs LDS that appears to be a big thing on these forums, won't be that at all.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:51 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,612 posts, read 3,474,573 times
Reputation: 1231
the one i have specifically been asking about was (if i remember right) in your second post, where you told us not to tell you that it was a mormon problem, because you knew it was. you might have said utah problem; i can't remember now.

since then, you have clarified that you don't think that it is a mormon problem or a utah problem, but that you think it is a mormon problem in your neighborhood, or a utah problem in your neighborhood. i understand (i think) what you are saying, and i concede that point to a degree. but i still think that this isn't being viewed from the right perspective if this is the case.

certainlly, it could be said, if 20 atheist neighbors are persecuting their single religious neighbor, that it was an atheist problem in their neighborhood. but then you take a step back and see the atheist problem in that neighborhood, the mormon problem in yours, the baptist problem in one of my last neighborhoods, the catholic problem in another, and the white and black problems in other neighborhoods, and it becomes clear that it is a human problem, because every civilization and society in history has had these problems (except purportedly the city of enoch, but i'll leave that one alone...).

that is pretty much as far as my standpoint goes on this subject, until i think of something else to put you guys to sleep with later.

aaron out.

p.s.–thanks for seeming reasonable; i'll try to do likewise (no promises though–i can't be tamed. i was born to be wild!).

aaron out again.
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:59 PM
 
70 posts, read 139,172 times
Reputation: 67
Aaron,
I just want to say "Thank you"!
Alice
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:26 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,612 posts, read 3,474,573 times
Reputation: 1231
you're welcome. and welcome to utah; i hope you and your family have better luck here than you have up till now.

seriously, we are thinking of doing a couple of city-data get-togethers of some sort. i'll be having a we-just-moved-in party in salem (south of provo and spanish fork) in a month or two as it warms up, even though we moved in finally in december. i think we are also looking at a trip down to one of the national parks or something last i heard (or read).

all utah-based or visiting city-data members are going to be there, since it's the cool thing to do; and yes, i would jump off of a cliff if the rest of the city-data utahns jumped first.

aaron out.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:28 PM
 
5 posts, read 11,589 times
Reputation: 10
So, without having read all 23 (!) pages of posts, I just want to share my FEELINGS and EXPERIENCE of living in Utah...I'm originally from MN, and my family moved to SLC when I was in 2nd grade. I didn't have a problem making friends at school, but I specifically remember one day, some kids in my class were talking about getting baptized. I told them that I had already been baptized when I was a baby (I was raised Lutheran). I went home crying that day because my classmates called me a liar and told me I didn't know what I was talking about and I couldn't have possibly been baptized already, and even the teacher couldn't explain to them that I was telling the truth. Now, I am only posting this because it was my first real experience with the LDS practices being different than my own. Of course most 7-8 year olds aren't very familiar with various religious practices, so I can't blame them for thinking I was weird/wrong/lying/whatever. But it made me aware that I wasn't the same.

When I was in 5th grade, my family moved to WI. By that time I wasn't going to church anymore (back then in SLC it was harder to find churches for other denominations, so my family kind of dropped it). The major religions in WI are Catholic and Lutheran. I attended a Catholic college, and even did one of my student teaching placements at a Catholic school. In both of those places it was expected that I was Catholic, but once people found out that I wasn't, they pretty much left it at that. Sure, it was weird during my first Ash Wednesday on campus when I saw classmates walking around with smudged crosses on their foreheads. And during student teaching I had to learn how to recite prayers, but people rarely talked about the religion, it was just kind of "in the background."

8 months ago, I graduated from college and my parents moved to Southern Utah. I didn't want to be away from them, so I moved too. I am definitely going through "culture shock" right now, and am not enjoying it. I am 22 years old, and I have no friends. When I meet new people, I am always asked where I moved from (because of my accent), if I am LDS, and then when I say I am not, they usually follow up with "Why did you move HERE then?" Not every single person has asked me this, but more than one has. I guess I just feel really put off by someone asking me what religion I am. I would never ask someone I just met what religion they are, just like I wouldn't ask who they voted for or if they are pro-life or pro-choice. It just feels so personal to me, and it makes me uncomfortable. A majority of people ask me if I am married or if I have children (I see a lot of women my age walking around with toddlers and/or big bellies). It's just a whole different way of life here. There's nothing wrong with it, but for someone who isn't a part of it, it can be a little uncomfortable.

I want to be able to make friends with people who wouldn't mind going out for a drink once in awhile, or seeing an R-rated movie, or shopping on a Sunday. And I don't want to feel like I am the one who's prejudiced because I want to know how to meet people who AREN'T LDS.

Last edited by Freeml; 02-25-2009 at 11:43 PM..
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Old 02-26-2009, 12:05 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,612 posts, read 3,474,573 times
Reputation: 1231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeml View Post
So, without having read all 23 (!) pages of posts, I just want to share my FEELINGS and EXPERIENCE of living in Utah...I'm originally from MN, and my family moved to SLC when I was in 2nd grade. I didn't have a problem making friends at school, but I specifically remember one day, some kids in my class were talking about getting baptized. I told them that I had already been baptized when I was a baby (I was raised Lutheran). I went home crying that day because my classmates called me a liar and told me I didn't know what I was talking about and I couldn't have possibly been baptized already, and even the teacher couldn't explain to them that I was telling the truth. Now, I am only posting this because it was my first real experience with the LDS practices being different than my own. Of course most 7-8 year olds aren't very familiar with various religious practices, so I can't blame them for thinking I was weird/wrong/lying/whatever. But it made me aware that I wasn't the same.
self awareness is ultimately a good thing of course, but it is a painful lesson to learn at the expense of inclusion, especially for kids.

Quote:
When I was in 5th grade, my family moved to WI. By that time I wasn't going to church anymore (back then in SLC it was harder to find churches for other denominations, so my family kind of dropped it). The major religions in WI are Catholic and Lutheran. I attended a Catholic college, and even did one of my student teaching placements at a Catholic school. In both of those places it was expected that I was Catholic, but once people found out that I wasn't, they pretty much left it at that. Sure, it was weird during my first Ash Wednesday on campus when I saw classmates walking around with smudged crosses on their foreheads. And during student teaching I had to learn how to recite prayers, but people rarely talked about the religion, it was just kind of "in the background."
yeah, i remember when i moved from utah to virginia. it seemed like a foreign country to me. then i went from virginia to argentina. that also seemed like a... never mind.

Quote:
8 months ago, I graduated from college and my parents moved to Southern Utah. I didn't want to be away from them, so I moved too. I am definitely going through "culture shock" right now, and am not enjoying it. I am 22 years old, and I have no friends.
if it makes you feel any better (not that it will, but i'm an idiot, and want to say it anyway), i'm a utah native, and my wife is a florida native. she has more friends here than i do, and i'm the outgoing one in the family!

work and school are keeping me busy, so all of my friends are online (you guys, and my old friends that i keep in touch with through email and facebook). yeah, i live a virtual life, except when i'm chasing my daughter around the house (which had painful consequences last night, if any of you read the chat thread...), or hiking in southern utah.

Quote:
When I meet new people, I am always asked where I moved from (because of my accent), if I am LDS, and then when I say I am not, they usually follow up with "Why did you move HERE then?" Not every single person has asked me this, but more than one has. I guess I just feel really put off by someone asking me what religion I am. I would never ask someone I just met what religion they are, just like I wouldn't ask who they voted for or if they are pro-life or pro-choice. It just feels so personal to me, and it makes me uncomfortable.
i just want to point out that there is nothing inherently wrong with asking those questions, but some people are more blunt than others about them because they don't realize these to be sensitive issues to other people. it is a utah cultural trait to talk about religion and even politics as if we were discussing the weather–for better or worse.

i certainly enjoy being able to talk openly about that kind of thing, but i realize that a lot of people have a "no religion, no politics" rule of conversation because of bad experiences with friends, family members, and even complete strangers.

even though i realize it, i still end up being a little less tactful than i'd like to be sometimes. i have a friend in a few of my digital media classes that isn't mormon, but grew up here in utah. i asked him one day about his experiences growing up in mormon utah with mormon peers, and how he was treated and stuff.

he actually seemed pretty comfy with the conversation, and said that it was certainly weird, but that he hadn't had any huge problems, just cultural differences.

other people that i have tried to engage similarly haven't been as open. so i try to get a judge of whether i think they would be up for the chat before i start asking questions.

Quote:
A majority of people ask me if I am married or if I have children (I see a lot of women my age walking around with toddlers and/or big bellies). It's just a whole different way of life here. There's nothing wrong with it, but for someone who isn't a part of it, it can be a little uncomfortable.

I want to be able to make friends with people who wouldn't mind going out for a drink once in awhile, or seeing an R-rated movie, or shopping on a Sunday. And I don't want to feel like I am the one who's prejudiced because I want to know how to meet people who AREN'T LDS.
i think that to be reasonable. obviously if you were out trying to avoid making mormon friends, i'd say something was wrong, but i don't think you are doing that. i have to admit to going out of my way to make nonmormon friends sometimes too, partially because i think that some of them are way cool and have some points of view that i can better relate to than my fellow mormons even at times, and because some of them really need some interaction and don't feel like they are getting it, and partially because i like to stress the point that there are friendly mormons out there that aren't secretly trying to figure out what size of baptismal clothes you would wear.

aaron out.
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:30 AM
 
48 posts, read 127,967 times
Reputation: 37
Thumbs up Utah Valley

Cycle. I'm sorry to read that you and your family have had such a negative experience. I also live in Utah Valley (Highland area at the far northern end of the valley), and my experience has been the opposite to yours. Although my husband and I are not LDS, we have found our LDS neighbors to be very friendly and welcoming. We have been to dinner in our neighbors homes and they have been to dinner at ours. People always wave and/or stop to chat we walk around the neighborhood in the evening, or are just driving down the street. We like to enjoy a glass of wine when we eat dinner outside on our back deck, but this, or the fact that our wine rack is clearly on display when neighbors visit our home has never been an issue for them. We don't drink when we are out with our LDS "friends" or when they visit our home, out of respect for their beliefs, but we certainly don't hide the fact that we do drink alcohol. Our neighborhood holds a 4th July parade and BBQ in the neighborhood park each year, to which everyone in the neighborhood is invited and welcomed. I have also been to several "girls night out" dinners and a couple of craft/activity nights that were organised by the local LDS ward Relief Society. They are primarily organised for the women of the church, but I am not the only non-member who has been invited to and enjoyed these events.

I'm not sure why my experience has been so different to others I have read about on this forum. Perhaps because we're at the far northern end of the valley, so the population is more diverse? Perhaps because we live in a brand new neighborhood where everyone is new to the area and trying to get to know other people? Our first Summer here everyone was so busy putting in sprinkler systems, and doing their gardens that it made a great conversation starter whenever people were out walking around the neighborhood. Perhaps it's because there are so many young families in our neighborhood (lots of couples in their 20's) and maybe the younger members of the LDS church are more open minded or less set in their ways? Perhaps it's because I have attended a few church-related events, and asked my neighbors questions about their religion? I feel if I am going to live in an area where one faith is so predominant and so central to the way they live, I'd like to understand it a little better. However, I have told my friends and neighbors that I am not interested in becoming a member of the church and they seem to respect that. We have not been harrassed to attend church or had people knocking at our door trying to preach to us. (In fact the first "missionaries" we had come to our door were Jehovah's witnesses!) Cynics might say they're going to work on me more subtly. I'd like to think that they are just good people and good neighbors.

My children are away from home in college, so the "making friends" in a new school has not been an issue for our family.

As for when I am out and about. I have found people in restaurants, shops and businesses to also be generally friendly. I'm pretty outgoing, and will strike up a conversation with anyone - at the gas pump, or in the line at the supermarket. The fact that I have coffee in my cart at the supermarket has never stopped someone from talking to me. When we're out hiking or skiing or mountain biking people that we encounter usually say "hi" and make idle comments about the trail or the weather.

Overall, we have had a very positive experience here in Utah, and after 2.5 years in Northern Virginia, where people rarely look you in the eye, I'm not unhappy that we made the move.
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